r/worldnews 5d ago

Saudi Arabia introduces a landmark legal amendment to allow single, divorced, or widowed women to live alone without permission from a male guardian

https://gulfnews.com/world/gulf/saudi/saudi-women-allowed-to-live-alone-without-permission-from-male-guardian-1.79787003?fbclid=IwAR2p4LVMW2HR8eQx_fPp_8thbBF4VtPkOig-Yl52rH3caJAhrJ8LiTrW7kc
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u/SimilarOrdinary 5d ago

Genuinely curious: What happens if you’re a woman with absolutely no connection to a living man whatsoever (and therefore no one who can grant you permission to do anything)?

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u/ajwadsabano 5d ago

You will go to a specialized family court and they will grant you full independence.

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u/SimilarOrdinary 5d ago

Oh okay. Thank you!

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u/louiloui152 5d ago

Progress rolling like a cold steam locomotive but at least she’s rolling.

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u/TimeTravelingSnoo 5d ago

Slap that baby in neutral and pushhhhhh!

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u/space10101 5d ago

Put it in H

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u/advertentlyvertical 5d ago

we just need a single tank of kerosene

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u/gear_m9 5d ago

We need this puppy going like the polar express.

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u/Polarbear605 5d ago

Choo Choo motherfucke! Don’t forget the Coke!

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u/MCurry8 5d ago

I like your positivity sir

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u/RyuujinZER0 5d ago

The trouble with slow forward momentum is that decades of progress can be wiped out in years by a motivated conservative government.

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u/louiloui152 5d ago

Sounds familiar. Where’s our modern day Teddy Roosevelt and a industrial can of WD40

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u/LeicaM6guy 5d ago

That has the ring of familiarity to it.

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u/bringsmemes 5d ago

what they dont ention is the beatings and rapes that will happen to them and not be reportted

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u/dankest_cucumber 5d ago

You're unfortunately right, which is what makes these women so brave. None of them are stupid, they all know the risk that living alone will bring, but just like the American civil rights pioneers, they're gonna do it and get beaten anyway for the sake of progress.

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u/Faxon 5d ago

Many of them would get raped and beaten anyways, at least they have the freedom to live how they please, and maybe living alone they'll be raped and beaten less than if they still lived with their abuser(s)

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u/da2Pakaveli 5d ago

Most ridiculous I heard was they put a women in prison because she got raped. Women ain’t even objects for some of them, it’s horrible.

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u/PTEHarambe 5d ago

I hate that you’re prolly right.

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u/Toofast4yall 5d ago

Maybe in another 2000 years this region of the world will have progressed into the 20th century

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u/asthmaticpunk 5d ago

Isn’t it weird that the region that invented math got all backwards as hell? Progress is required to get back to where they were 1000 years ago.

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u/Jaambie 5d ago

I feel like religion played a BIG part in that backwards movement.

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u/asthmaticpunk 5d ago

That feels right, but I know it’s more complicated. Huge advancements took place under the Islamic Caliphates. I suggest fallout from colonialism shares more of the blame.

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u/Ghrave 5d ago

Much, MUCH more. There was a post on here a few days ago about how US tolerance of Saudi export of extremist Wahabism in exchange for the Petrodollar caused literally everything we see today.

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u/APr0N00b 5d ago

It didn't. Geopolitics did. We spent over a hundred years using the middle east as our personal checkerboard with USSR an europe joining of course

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u/Wellhowboutdat 5d ago

Religion of all shades has impeded progress worldwide and had some shit things done in their "name".

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u/Oneeyebrowsystem 5d ago

Religion didn't invent math, Arabs (and other ethnicities, but that concept wasn't as strong as it is today) did. There were Arab Muslims, Christian and Jews that were on the forefront of the centuries of Arab/Islamic scientific revolution.

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u/kloudrunner 5d ago

Thats not fair. Black is a very slimming colour. /s

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u/execdysfunction 5d ago

That sounds like a good way to encourage women to murder their abusers lol

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u/ManiacalShen 5d ago

Before modern forensic science and equality laws, I'm pretty sure a lot of abusive husbands fell mysteriously, fatally ill or had tragic accidents at home. If it's your only way out of a bad marriage with any assets or security or social standing intact...

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u/5crystalraf 4d ago

Yep. Goodbye Earl. Those black eyed peas tasted alright to me.

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u/ashenhaired 5d ago

not 100% sure I had Libyan guy at work telling me they have like orphanage for cut out females but they usually send out cries for help through twitter, you could imagine how terrible they are treated

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u/ArttuH5N1 5d ago

Was he or had he been living in Saudi Arabia?

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u/ashenhaired 5d ago

I could imagine your shock but bear with me, he used to work in Bin laden company (not the terrorist though but his family company)

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u/XNjunEar 5d ago

Bin Laden is possibly the largest contractor in KSA. Lots of people work there.

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u/Lambchoptopus 5d ago

Brought to you by Bin Laden, a family company.

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u/F1RST_WORLD_PROBLEMS 4d ago

KSA = Kingdom of Saudi Arabia

I had to Google it, so hopefully this saves someone else 10 seconds so they can see one more cat gif or whatever :)

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u/eyuplove 5d ago

Imagine your shock when you learn they're Bessie mates with most of the US govt

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u/Packitupstan 5d ago

I mean that’s pretty much all women in SA.

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u/[deleted] 5d ago

[removed]

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u/space_moron 5d ago edited 5d ago

This is reflected in The Handmaid's Tale with the enforced social structure between the aunts, the wives, the Marthas, the unwomen and the handmaids. "Punching down" comes more naturally and gives you that tiny sense of empowerment when you're under an oppressive regime that makes "punching up" impossible if not fatal.

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u/Oneofmanyshades 5d ago

Hey, I am not trying to be rude but I think you meant oppressive, not impressive.

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u/spaced_cased_ 5d ago

I read it and didn't even notice the typo as my brain processed it as oppressive.

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u/ThisIsMyGameAccount 5d ago

Don't oppress me with your impressive rudeness.

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u/space_moron 5d ago

My autocorrect is not impressive

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u/ResolverOshawott 5d ago

It's just an absolutely vicious cycle of abuse.

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u/illapa13 5d ago

After getting full independence she will be accused of witchcraft by everyone around for anything/everything that goes wrong in the community until something sticks and she loses everything.

At least that's what would happen in the 1600s in the rest of the world. For modern Saudi Arabia I wouldn't even be surprised.

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u/DrBimboo 5d ago

Great, so there is a way out for women in Saudi Arabia, just kill all the men you know!

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u/RheaButt 5d ago

If the law passes I imagine we'll see a reduction in mysterious unexplainable illnesses targeting the last surviving man in a family

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u/TheBold 5d ago

I’m sure the country who just passed a landmark law giving women indépendance would go real easy on them if they killed their husband. Real easy.

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u/MuckingFagical 5d ago

Is that what happened before this law?

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u/delightful_baker 5d ago edited 5d ago

There's an animated film called "The Breadwinner" (about an Afghan girl trying to provide for her family while under Taliban rule) which makes you realise the full gravity of this barbaric "male guardian" law.

It showed scenarios where it was impossible/dangerous for women and girls just to go outside to get food or fetch water for their family because their only male relative is dead/gravely ill/imprisoned/forced to fight in war.

The film’s plot revolves around this situation. It’s a very sad and intense film...

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u/DeadWishUpon 5d ago

I was crying the whole time. It is so unfair that people have to live like that.

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u/delightful_baker 5d ago edited 5d ago

Same here. Even with how simplistic the animation was, I was emotional the entire time.

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u/HolyNova1 5d ago

I remember having to read the book when I was in 6th grade

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u/caughtinchaos 5d ago

Ah the age old philosophical question - Does a woman even exist when not connected to a man?
/s

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u/Statman_2004 5d ago

It’s the Wali who is the legal guardian. Without a father/brother to assign that title to (or uncles/cousins etc on the father’s side first, then the mother’s), it will fall to either a (local) religious leader or (local) political leader etc to be the Wali.

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u/0mnicious 5d ago

Hmm, kinda similar but less sophisticated than the Romans, interesting.

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u/UnderLurd 5d ago

You simply cease existing and/or Saudi Arabia implodes. Whichever comes first.

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u/toastyghost 5d ago

Pls the latter

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u/bt123456789 5d ago

They still have a very long way to go but I'm actually glad to see some steps forward are being made.

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u/tokyogettopussy 5d ago

A step in the right direction should still be celebrated. Culture is hard to change and it needs to come within from their own people.

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u/bt123456789 5d ago

yes, i agree completely.

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u/poopellar 5d ago

I was expecting a completely different tone in this comment section. Glad some steps forward are being made here as well.

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u/Gene__Parmesan_PI 5d ago

I'll just leave these here.

  • Saudi Arabia is said to be the world's largest source of funds and promoter of Salafist jihadism, which forms the ideological basis of terrorist groups such as al-Qaeda, Taliban, ISIS and others. Donors in Saudi Arabia constitute the most significant source of funding to Sunni terrorist groups worldwide, according to Hillary Clinton. According to a secret December 2009 paper signed by the US secretary of state, "Saudi Arabia remains a critical financial support base for al-Qaida, the Taliban, LeT and other terrorist groups."

  • Former CIA director James Woolsey described Wahhabism as "the soil in which Al-Qaeda and its sister terrorist organizations are flourishing."

  • In 2015, Sigmar Gabriel, Vice-Chancellor of Germany, accused Saudi Arabia of supporting intolerance and extremism, saying: "Wahhabi mosques are financed all over the world by Saudi Arabia. In Germany, many dangerous Islamists come from these communities."

  • "In Syria, in early 2015, Saudi Arabia supported the creation of the Army of Conquest, primarily made up of the al-Qaeda affiliate the al-Nusra Front and the ideologically similar Ahrar al-Sham, which won a series of victories against the Syrian Army in Idlib province."source

  • In May 2016, The New York Times editorialised that the kingdom allied to the U.S. had "spent untold millions promoting Wahhabism, the radical form of Sunni Islam that inspired the 9/11 hijackers and that now inflames the Islamic State" Source

  • 'Sensitive' UK terror funding inquiry may never be published - Investigation into foreign funding and support of jihadi groups operating in UK understood to focus on Saudi Arabia source

  • We finally know what Hillary Clinton knew all along – US allies Saudi Arabia and Qatar are funding Isis source

  • The paper drew on classified intelligence from numerous agencies: ‘Turkey and Saudi-based chemical facilitators,’ it said, ‘were attempting to obtain sarin precursors in bulk, tens of kilograms, likely for the anticipated large scale production effort in Syria.’ source

  • By the terms of the agreement, funding came from Turkey, as well as Saudi Arabia and Qatar; the CIA, with the support of MI6, was responsible for getting arms from Gaddafi’s arsenals into Syria. A number of front companies were set up in Libya, some under the cover of Australian entities. Retired American soldiers, who didn’t always know who was really employing them, were hired to manage procurement and shipping. The operation was run by David Petraeus, the CIA director who would soon resign when it became known he was having an affair with his biographer. source

  • FBI accidentally reveals name of Saudi official suspected of directing support for 9/11 hijackers source

  • CIA intercepts underpin assessment Saudi Crown Prince targeted journalist Jamal Khashoggi source

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u/HP_civ 5d ago edited 5d ago

The paper drew on classified intelligence from numerous agencies: ‘Turkey and Saudi-based chemical facilitators,’ it said, ‘were attempting to obtain sarin precursors in bulk, tens of kilograms, likely for the anticipated large scale production effort in Syria.’

So that article makes it seem like Islamist rebels produced Sarin themselves for a false flag attack. It also has this part:

Within a few days of the 21 August attack, the former intelligence official told me, Russian military intelligence operatives had recovered samples of the chemical agent from Ghouta. They analysed it and passed it on to British military intelligence; this was the material sent to Porton Down.

"The Regime didn't do it, according to samples sent to us by Russian military intelligence." No way the Russians would have let their client down and delivered condemning material straight to their declared enemies.

Other than that, this is an impressive array of sources and a quality post.

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u/Randomksa2 5d ago

Obviously the ex CIA director would know a thing or two about finding terrorism.

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u/phdthrowaway110 5d ago

Donors in Saudi Arabia constitute the most significant source of funding to Sunni terrorist groups worldwide

And where to these donors in Saudia Arabia get/earn their money from?

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u/WikiSummarizerBot 5d ago

State-sponsored_terrorism

Saudi Arabia

While Saudi Arabia is often a secondary source of funds and support for terror movements who can find more motivated and ideologically invested benefactors, Saudi Arabia arguably remains the most prolific sponsor of international Islamist terrorism, allegedly supporting groups as disparate as the Afghanistan Taliban, Al Qaeda, Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) and the Al-Nusra Front. Saudi Arabia is said to be the world's largest source of funds and promoter of Salafist jihadism, which forms the ideological basis of terrorist groups such as al-Qaeda, Taliban, Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant and others.

[ F.A.Q | Opt Out | Opt Out Of Subreddit | GitHub ] Downvote to remove | Credit: kittens_from_space

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u/Super-Sheep 5d ago

Look, none of this news dismisses the bad stuff they've done and how much money and support they managed to bribe out of little Trump, but I'll take a Saudi Arabia where women have more rights over a Saudi Arabia where they have less any day.

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u/xMWHOx 5d ago

Maybe they could release all the female activists they have in jail next?

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u/ashenhaired 5d ago

Why were you downvoted? Any news about how saudi is progressing in human rights while having jailed people without any prosecution is just a PR stunt.

Like for real people think saudi will plant 10 billion tree ...in a fucking desert that rains once every 2 years.

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u/TriloBlitz 5d ago

It’s called “desert greening”. It’s possible and it’s being done in Africa. The rain will become gradually more frequent, the “greener” the desert gets. It’s believed that it is possible to change a desert biome into a forest biome.

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u/AdventurousDress576 5d ago

Terraforming

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u/FunetikPrugresiv 5d ago

Maybe it's possible to praise the good things they are doing without pretending that we're going to overlook the bad things?

Like... "Good first step, only a thousand left to go!"

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u/bt123456789 5d ago

that would be a good thing, yes.

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u/friendofalltehworld 5d ago

Unfortunately this is more likely just PR to overhaul their 'image'. Saudi Arabia is one of the worst countries in the world for human rights abuses. The slavery and torture continue unabated, yet abetted by US support.

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u/nw-redditor 5d ago

Let’s not forget this is the same country that killed and dismembered reporter Jamal Khashoggi. Saudi Arabia wants some good press for making a minor improvement in some law that shouldn’t exist in the first place. The fact that they’ve decided to be slightly less oppressive to their own people in one area shouldn’t make us forget the fact that they’re still oppressive.

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u/PantsOnHead88 5d ago

I’d encourage a stronger term than oppressive. Tyrannical anyone?

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u/Wkurwionyszopen 5d ago

MBS also spied on other dissidents living abroad and sent his death squads to either kidnap or kill them. Dude's out of control and should be sent to the Hague to face trial.

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u/LetsLive97 5d ago

PR that positively changes things is fine by me. Especially considering this could slowly help wean away the super extreme traditional values over the decades.

Fake it till you make it can happen without you meaning it to.

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u/Dave5876 5d ago

Oil money ain't gonna last forever. Can't attract global investment if you're a regressive state.

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u/bt123456789 5d ago

more or less, yes.

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u/[deleted] 5d ago edited 2d ago

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u/APr0N00b 5d ago

That's too optimistic. It's a smokescreen for the west countries to sell to their people and pretend "who could have seen the country that exports terrorism...keeps doing it?! look at their new laws!"

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u/trisul-108 5d ago

Yeah, they'll pass this law while prosecuting women who asked for it.

Edit: Because only The Prince has the right to ask for anything.

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u/Tavarish_destroyer 5d ago

Saudi Arabia has progressed in women rights so much in the last few years. I remember when I visited the country 13 years ago, there was religious police roaming around in shopping malls to enforce dress codes for women (all-black attire) and harassing and detaining unmarried couples. Now, I visited it right before the Covid pandemic, and it seemed like another country. The person who stamped my passport was a woman. The religious police is gone. There are women working around in every corner and they can wear whatever they like. Mixed-gender concerts, opening movie theaters with latest Hollywood movies. Yes, there’s still some missing legal rights here and there, but I wouldn’t call it a long way.

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u/whitie123 5d ago

I live in Saudi and “wear whatever they like” is bit far fetched…women cannot wear tight fit clothes and have to cover full arms and legs length…

If that’s not enough, every single person (non-western) you encounter will look at you as some sort disgrace if you’re not wearing an abaya.

So still a very looong way to go

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u/MDCCCLV 5d ago

Are foreign guest workers being treated better now than the last decade?

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u/whitie123 5d ago

Really depends where you’re from, which usually ends up in blatant discrimination and quite poor manners towards Asian nationals which is terrible.

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u/youmightbeinterested 5d ago

Also, LGBTQ+ rights are non-existent.

According to wikipedia:

"Homosexuality and being transgender are widely seen as immoral and indecent activities, and the law punishes acts of homosexuality or cross-dressing with punishments of fines, public whipping, beatings, vigilante attacks, chemical castrations, prison time up to life,[1] capital punishment[3] and torture.[4]"

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u/Virge23 5d ago

If you're expecting LGBTQIAAP+ rights in the middle east you're gonna be sorely disappointed.

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u/Randyboob 5d ago

They don't even reach as far as Poland

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u/misskinky 5d ago

Literally not being able to choose where to live without a man’s permission until now is still a pretty long way from equality

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u/Sshalebo 5d ago

Because Saudi Arabia has been a US ally for so long they haven't been subjected to the same demonisation by MSM and state news outlets as other similar countries. The effect has been that the narrative quickly pivots to "They are making progress" instead of actually facing the atrocities perpetrated by what is an oppressive theocratic dictatorship that can kill and imprison any of its citizenship with impunity. They commit the same human rights violations they accuse, for example, Russia of committing. But Saudi Arabia has an american issued "Hall pass". Go right on through good sir.

Had they not played ball the discourse would've been so much different. Just look at the US intervention into countries that rejected it. Arming terrorists, assassinations of democratically elected leaders, installing puppet leaders, deathsquads, flooding the country with drugs, sanctioning the people into malnutrition and desperation...

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u/insufficient_mana 5d ago

ah yes. Saudi Arabia, our partners in peace.

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u/BigBananaBerries 5d ago

ah yes. Saudi Arabia, our partners in peace petrodollar.

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u/wggn 5d ago

*in trading oil for weapons

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u/errorsniper 5d ago

They peaced us so hard on 9/11.

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u/enchantrem 5d ago

Mr Sorkin go back to bed, you're drunk

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u/Mabenue 5d ago

Things don’t change overnight. It’s enormous progress, if you expect them to suddenly have western levels of rights for women you’re going to be constantly disappointed. It’s a massive cultural shift and is something that should be welcomed.

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u/groveborn 5d ago

We don't have Western levels of rights for women... We have essentially no right granting women equal status to men. All of their privileges under law can be revoked with a majority - save the right to vote.

Everything from body autonomy to the right to have a credit card or property is federal or state law, not constitutionally protected.

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u/lounger540 5d ago

Well to be fair, they do seem to be capable of changing overnight, in the other direction. I hear Iran used to be nice and the women wore skirts and shorts with their hair down, then suddenly, not so much.

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u/Grimsolution 5d ago

There's a difference between the same people in power slowly progressing the country, and a massive Iranian revolution, killing the ones in power and establishing the Theocratic Rule.

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u/NomadRover 5d ago

Iran was a student revolution that was hijacked by the Islamists. Same thing happened in Egypt during the Arab Spring.

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u/lounger540 5d ago

Ataturk in Turkey and Nassar in Egypt did a lot more in less time. If the West actually pressured them in any way, but instead we give them weapons and a Formula 1 race. #weraceasone 😝

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u/halcyonwaters 5d ago

It still amazes me what Ataturk managed to build in such a short period of time. And now Erdogan is shitting all over it.

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u/lounger540 5d ago

Yeah sucks, I got to visit just as he was starting, after the bombing that killed the German’s at the blue mosque. The nightlife was still around and drinking at the markets at night but my friend who was from there was sketched out saying how a lot had changed in the year since he was last there and he didn’t think it’d be safe come the next year. It was kind of sad actually cause he’s really proud of their history, has an Ataturk poster in his bedroom still as a grown man.

We should really consider if we want to keep up NATO relations with them unfortunately.

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u/TomatoFettuccini 5d ago

Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan, too, before the US came along and helped their countries commit coups against liberal, democratically elected governments.

Plus all of South and Central America.

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u/Knewtun 5d ago

Wow, who knew massive destabilization would lead to rise in religious extremism.

When the US bombs your weddings, your hospitals, and the shelters you kept your women and children in, the religious nutjob thats been screaming about the "western devils trying to wipe us all out" and that "god will punish us for women being allowed to breath without permission" starts appearing to make sense.

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u/friendofalltehworld 5d ago

Yes, there’s still some missing legal rights here and there

Remember that time they dismembered a journalist in 2018?

Man so long ago! How they've changed!

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u/bt123456789 5d ago

I kinda am inclined to agree with misskinky, it's still a long way because this JUSt started being legal, then there's the whole "being gay" thing being illegal and punishable by death...

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u/cld8 5d ago

I guess when you start so low, you have room to improve very quickly.

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u/AlternateAltTRex 5d ago

Saudi Arabia has progressed in women rights so much in the last few years.

It's referred to as a "PR Campaign."

The Saudi's realize that their anti-woman culture, laws, religion, and history is a bad look when it comes to business and making money. So every know and then they'll give just enough way that corporate media can run sympathetic "progressive" news stories to paint them in a better light. The Saudi's are owned and their owners want to control their capital.

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u/Tavarish_destroyer 5d ago

Of course there comes a motive for their progression. Women got their rights in the West to increase and strengthen the economy’s workforce. It’s not that they just felt like it was wrong.

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u/Leto2Atreides 5d ago

The war effort got women into factories, but it was political and cultural momentum that kept them there. In other words, the change was sustained and normalized because people liked it and society realized it was wrong to keep women out of the workforce as such.

It's interesting to consider an illustrative counter-factual: would this sustained change have occurred if the government and its institutions were ruled by conservative religious authorities?

If not, one must consider whether more abstract things like the secular nature of modern Western law, including the institutionalization of concepts like 'legal rights', played a critical role in facilitating the transformation.

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u/Otis_Inf 5d ago

So women can now wear what they want and do what they want, or do they still have to wear and do what some men decided for them?

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u/SuccumbedToReddit 5d ago

some missing legal rights here and there,

lmao dude, you've got to be either kidding or being paid to say this. It'll be literally decades before anything resembling equality will be there. It's not even there in the western world.

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u/Gayandfluffy 5d ago

A lot of Saudi feminists are currently imprisoned and tortured by the state. The progress isn't deep enough. And I imagine it's still a death sentence to be gay or atheist there.

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u/StarBlazingSpaceWolf 5d ago

Lol. Ooooo mixed gender concerts! You're right, just a few legal rights here and there and it's almost an egalitarian paradise!

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u/DECKADUBS 5d ago

I knew your comment smelled fishy, and your comment history is all Saudi related PR stuff. Good luck on your hustle.

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u/GlaciusTS 5d ago

Yeah, if only I could visit there without the risk of being branded a terrorist for being an Atheist.

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u/kyle_dai 5d ago

There are women working around in every corner and they can wear whatever they like.

I call bullshit on that.

Can they not wear their niqab ?

Even if they can, I bet they can't wear short skirts and tops with thin straps that leave the midsection visible. Stuff that's super common in Europe during summer.

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u/4Lilith20 5d ago edited 5d ago

We can live alone without their permission it’s not that what changed. The new law bans men from filing report on “missing person” on their kids female or male as long as they have an official registered address. It’s not the government we fight as feminists in Saudi Arabia it’s the patriarchy in Saudi Families that we fight. You should also know that men and women in Saudi Arabia continue living on their parents home until they move out as Married. It’s a cultural thing that no “singles” living alone.

That was part one,

Second Part is that females who get detained or arrested were not allowed to leave detention unless some male from her family would pick her up. Therefore no Saudi male would pick a shameful sister or daughter or even mother .. and female detention centers were full of females who had no reason to be detained other than males on her family refusing to get her back, they would rather kill her.

Well thats changed now and they can leave without waiting for family males to take them back.

I’ve been reading the replays and most men are like “ohh and we have women in US asking for rights”.

Habibi don’t take us as an excuse to not give females equal pay or whatever right they are fighting for.

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u/CombativeNoodle 5d ago edited 5d ago

My sister was forced to get a virginity test in (Riyadh) in Saudi Arabia once because she met one of her male colleagues at a mall and they decided to eat at the same table. The detention center had contacted my dad to come get her out. This happened 10+ years ago but it still makes me sick and it’s probably what makes me never want to live there ever again.

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u/WOKinTOK-sleptafter 5d ago

What the hell is a virginity test

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u/avatinfernus 5d ago

They examine your genials and kind of guess if you're a virgin.

I say "guess" because, medically speaking, it makes zero sense. Just another way of controlling what women do with their bodies.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginity_test

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u/CombativeNoodle 5d ago

I think there are different ways to perform the test. But my sister had some women in that detention center who is NOT A DOCTOR perform a "two-finger" test. They asked her to pull down her trousers and squat on top of a table so that the women would then insert her fingers and check for vaginal laxity.

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u/WOKinTOK-sleptafter 5d ago

Would vaginal laxity not be different for different women? What would happen if they determined that a given woman was not a virgin?

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u/CombativeNoodle 5d ago

You are right, but it's poor education and lack of knowledge about female anatomy that makes them believe that these tests are reliable. Women who fail that test are most likely reported to their male guardians (father, brother, husband or uncle) who would then lock them up, beat them, or even kill them. The family is also fined a hefty amount of money.

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u/ajwadsabano 4d ago

This is sick! I'm glad that is all something of the past, at least in Saudi Arabia. I'm not sure about some other parts of the Middle East.

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u/RepChep 5d ago

At the end of the day, we are all fighting for the same thing. Respect, control over our own lives, equal representation, and justice (especially in domestic violence and sexual assault, which almost never gets taken seriously).

Those against us are more determined to divide us than prove us wrong, because they know they’ll never be able to do the latter.

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u/stateoffriction 5d ago

Thanks for explaining & congrats on the progress so far!! Keep fighting the good fight.

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u/[deleted] 5d ago

I just want to say thank you for explaining! I love you for that last sentence

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u/Kaleidoscopekitty666 5d ago

Women were unfairly being charged more for health insurance until 2010. So they can shut up.. The men who say "oh but women in the US like to complain" are just men who hate women. The more they criticize feminism, the longer it will stick around.

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u/MaxOutchea 5d ago

What a response ya ukhti. Amazing

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u/Schnitze 5d ago

Welcome to 1872 Saudi Arabia.

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u/Im_int 5d ago

What a lot of people don't realize is that Saudi Arabia wasn't like that until after 1979. I mean it was conservative and all, but reforms were underway as well. And then this happened, so king Khaled decided to strike a deal with the religious nutters to avoid what happened in Iran a year earlier. That really fucked up KSA in a bad way.

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u/WikiSummarizerBot 5d ago

Grand_Mosque_seizure

The Grand Mosque seizure occurred during November and December 1979 when extremist insurgents calling for the overthrow of the House of Saud took over Masjid al-Haram, the holiest mosque in Islam, in Mecca, Saudi Arabia. The insurgents declared that the Mahdi (the "redeemer of Islam") had arrived in the form of one of their leaders – Mohammed Abdullah al-Qahtani – and called on Muslims to obey him. For nearly two weeks Saudi Special Forces, advised by French commandos, fought pitched battles to reclaim the compound.

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u/cantthinkatall 5d ago

Saudi King Khaled, however, did not react to the upheaval by cracking down on religious puritans in general, but by giving the ulama and religious conservatives more power over the next decade. He is thought to have believed that "the solution to the religious upheaval was simple: more religion."[14] First, photographs of women in newspapers were banned, then women on television. Cinemas and music shops were shut down. School curriculum was changed to provide many more hours of religious studies, eliminating classes on subjects like non-Islamic history. Gender segregation was extended "to the humblest coffee shop,” and religious police became more assertive.

That's some Handmaids Tale shit right there.

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u/OctaveOGB 5d ago

I remember seeing pictures of Saudi before juhaiman, it was really progressive compared to today but extreme religious fucks love to use religions to control people.

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u/Eshraf 5d ago

This was a really interesting story, I haven’t even heard of it being mentioned anywhere, although its apparently a big incident in the 20th century. Thanks for the link.

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u/ChrisTinnef 5d ago

Actual experts on the Middle East pinpoint the Grand Mosque seizure and the Islamic revolution in Iran as the defining moment of the region for the following decades.

Of course, pundits who only look at 9/11 and ISIS will ignore it. But it shaped the region massively.

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u/[deleted] 5d ago

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u/RepChep 5d ago

There’s a reason for that...

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u/Wathani 5d ago

I would think the Nakba is more defining. Everything has been triggered by it, including the increase in religiosity.

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u/ergotofrhyme 5d ago edited 5d ago

Every time I see one of these landmark progressive rulings in Muslim theocracies it reads like an onion article. Like this is really happening just now?

Edit: yes, there’s plenty of backwards shit in the us. Every day I see American articles that read like the onion, they’re he majority of r/nottheonion. Just saw something about somewhere in the south just now considering a law that bans teachers beating children. That could be one too. Yes, there’s lots of shit that I can’t believe is still going on right now in the us. We’re especially draconian with abortion, if we’re talking in relation to women’s rights. But this is a world news sub and I made a comment about Saudi Arabia, so can you please all stop bombarding me with this shit? I agree with you, it’s just tiresome, contributes nothing to the conversation, and is a total non sequitur. We all know there are gross human rights abuses in America as well. Every thread isn’t about the us tho, there happen to be other places, and the world doesn’t exist solely in contrast with one country. There are a couple relevant comments below mentioning the us and then a bunch of totally random shit. I’m an American and every thread here devolving to our bs annoys even me, can imagine it’s much worse for the rest of the world

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u/Basura1999 5d ago

It's almost too easy for MBS. Announce a small reform and watch every media outlet clamor over how progressive you are, while ignoring your human rights abuses.

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u/MayEastRise 5d ago

When my grandparents started working my grandmother needed a permission from her husband to work. Rape in marriages was only criminalized in 1997. And I don’t live somewhere in Arabia but in civilized Germany.

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u/-Kodijack- 5d ago

That was AFAIK 1974. But not less shocking in any way when I learned that. I couldn't believe it...

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u/facedawg 5d ago

The US had legal discrimination against Black Americans in my parent’s lifetime

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u/_yen 5d ago

Honestly it’s more like 1974, Women couldn’t even have credit cards without a male co-signing until then and certainly couldn’t get onto rental contracts. 1882 was when women were allowed to own property without a male co-sign but financial equality came much later.

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u/Eaterofpies 5d ago

the fact that a basic human right being offered to half their population is a landmark legal amendment makes you wonder how it got to that level of restriction to begin with

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u/ajwadsabano 5d ago

Saudi Arabia was a normal country progressing like any other one until 1979, when this happened. The royal family was scared that the same Islamic revolution of Iran can be carried to the Kingdom, so they decided to give religious leaders more power to appease the conservatives...

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u/WikiSummarizerBot 5d ago

Grand_Mosque_seizure

The Grand Mosque seizure occurred during November and December 1979 when extremist insurgents calling for the overthrow of the House of Saud took over Masjid al-Haram, the holiest mosque in Islam, in Mecca, Saudi Arabia. The insurgents declared that the Mahdi (the "redeemer of Islam") had arrived in the form of one of their leaders – Mohammed Abdullah al-Qahtani – and called on Muslims to obey him. For nearly two weeks Saudi Special Forces, advised by French commandos, fought pitched battles to reclaim the compound.

[ F.A.Q | Opt Out | Opt Out Of Subreddit | GitHub ] Downvote to remove | Credit: kittens_from_space

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u/RedditYouVapidSlut 5d ago

Probably should have learnt from previously hard learnt lessons about appeasement...

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u/analogjuicebox 5d ago

Well, there isn’t that much wondering to do when we know the answer is religion.

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u/Bowlffalo_Soulja 5d ago

Makes you wonder how they got on the human rights council too

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u/Sadiebb 5d ago

Now if they would just stop chopping up journalists and cooking them in ovens.

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u/ashenhaired 5d ago

BuT tHeY lEt WoMeN dRiVe.

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u/colourcodedcandy 5d ago

Or if they could stop apostasy from being punishable, especially by death!

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u/OldBoots 5d ago

Slowly moving into the 19th Century.

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u/MasterApprentices 5d ago

20th

Women didn’t have basic rights until the 20th century.

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u/OldBoots 5d ago

Actually some women on the Isle of Man gained the right to vote in 1881, and New Zealand in 1893. Exceptions, I know. Still wrong that it took so long.

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u/sjfiuauqadfj 5d ago

technically rich white american women who owned land could vote in 1 or 2 states in the 1700s. however the old rich white guys were like "hmmm...loophole?" and removed their voting rights a decade or two late

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u/dagamoo 5d ago

This kind of thing interests me in how oppression swings back and forwards in time. As an example if you research Iran or even Saudi up to maybe the 70s there was little religious oppression of women, at that point a particularly conservative portion of people took command (during wars and revolution) and a lot of Arab countries went super conservative (I’ve muchly simplified this and no not all of the facts). This is slowly unwinding. The US also has a history of this and the rise of trump encouraged conservatives to voice again, hence race crimes and riots not seen since the 70s…

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u/sskor 5d ago

And Wyoming territorial elections in 1869, continuing onto state elections in 1890

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u/Archipelagoisland 5d ago

The problem with catchy legalistic headlines like these is it misses the cultural reality of life in Saudi Arabia. What the law says and what local communities (including local police) decide outside of several major cities is very different. Sure women can be “allowed” to live alone now but large parts of the population won’t accommodate or acknowledge it. A land lord isn’t going to rent to a random women seeking shelter from an abusive household. This was seen when women got the right to work in Saudi Arabia a few years back...... the law says it’s allowed now.... but the reality is very few people are willing to hire women. This was also seen when Saudi Arabia legalized women driving alone....... the amount of women it actually affected was minuscule because most people wouldn’t let their daughters or wives drive alone anyway. The contemporary culture simply hasn’t moved forward for actual law to matter outside of a few modernish cities. Don’t get me wrong it’s a start but Saudi Arabia has a long long long way to go.

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u/ruminajaali 5d ago

Just like it’s legal for women to be topless in parts of US/Canada yet no one does

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u/Propeller3 5d ago

Wow, it's almost like laws that are passed take time, sometimes entire generations, to be effective!

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u/26595602 5d ago edited 5d ago

The point is, laws are moot if they are not supported or enforced and, the lack of a law doesn't mean a great deal if a community polices itself.

i.e you really need laws that make discrimination illegal to claim to have made progress - laws that are supported and enforced.

Thus the idea this change is "progress" is specious.

It's not enough for there to be no laws saying you can't hire black people, you need a law that makes it illegal to discriminate on grounds of race when hiring. The former allows prejudice, the latter is progress against it.

It's not enough to remove a law stopping women from driving or working or whatever. You'd have to make it illegal to obstruct a woman from driving or working who would otherwise be legally doing so.

You have to specifically make it illegal for a family to behave in this way - and be seen to support and enforce that law. That would then be progress.

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u/TheChinchilla914 5d ago

Yeah if the House of Saud did a tenth of what you recommend wahabbi extremists IMMEDIATELY seize control of the country.

Allowing something legally is the first step

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u/Ebscriptwalker 5d ago

Jim crow laws enter the chat

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u/2Throwscrewsatit 5d ago

Joe Manchin filibusters the chat

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u/Dave5876 5d ago

Being an ultra-conservative theocratic monarchy probably doesn't help.

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u/Kryptosis 5d ago

Compare that to US weed legalization. Cops dont care anymore, states dont care, people in public dont care. Fed still cares. Complete opposite.

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u/CBT7commander 5d ago

Finally, some good fucking news!

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u/Kallamez 5d ago

Wow! That's almost 19th century level of development! Way to go!

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u/myles_cassidy 5d ago

I wonder if being on the UN human rights council ended up pushing for these changes like this.

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u/Tavarish_destroyer 5d ago

This might annoy many people in here, but the main person behind all these changes is the Saudi Crown Prince, MBS. Basically he was able to do all these social reforms with minimal societal backlash by detaining all the known radical religious clerics who issue backward fatwas. Many Saudi conservatives hate his guts but are not able to do anything.

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u/Dave5876 5d ago

MBS realises that oil money isn't going to last forever. He's trying to make KSA a global hub of some sort and attract foreign investors. Even Muslim conservatives think the Wahabists are too intense.

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u/Nonononoki 5d ago

Ah yes Mohammed Bone Saw

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u/bloody_lumps 5d ago

BONESAW IS READYYYYYYY

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u/raknor88 5d ago

Sadly, just because it's officially legal doesn't mean that the women won't be socially shunned or punished for following the new laws if they're passed.

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u/Kofu 5d ago

You can get divorced in Saudi Arabia?

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u/kasual503 5d ago

Jesus. What year is it?

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u/severinarson 5d ago

JFC slow clap I guess. What's next, not killing homosexuals in public with rocks?

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u/Dave5876 5d ago

Whoa whoa whoa, let's not get ahead of ourselves. Acknowledge one group as a part of humanity at a time

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u/friendofalltehworld 5d ago

From now on Journalists will not be tortured before being dismembered.

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u/Hueco_Mundo 5d ago

How progressive!

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u/Bob_Juan_Santos 5d ago

here's an idea, why not just give the same rights a man has to a woman?

saves time and effort for these piecemeal legislations.

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u/GingerPinoy 5d ago

Congrats? What a backward ass place, but I guess any progression is good

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u/Zeontar 5d ago

Does Saudi Arabia want props for this? 😂 F**king embarrassing to still treat woman like that in this day and age. :/ as if they are toddlers with no rights that need to be taken care of.

And then there are these influencers even female ones going to live in that country out of their own free will.

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u/Juoppoja 5d ago

It’s 2021. That places like this exist let alone are tolerated is beyond belief.

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u/shadowskill11 5d ago

That’s some progress! In only another 500 years I’m sure they will be able to go to the beach in a bikini.

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u/ricmarkes 5d ago

How can a country in 2021 still be so backwards. That's just primitive stuff.

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u/vmflair 5d ago

Wait, if you give women human rights then everyone will want them!

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u/reb0014 5d ago

Lol, it’s fucking hilarious the minuscule progress they celebrate. Like how low can that bar possibly get. “We have decided to allow women to exist”

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