r/unpopularopinion May 04 '21

The people who most strongly advocate against capitalism are the ones who have already profited so much off of it.

Living in NYC, you see a bunch of people who hate capitalism for whatever reason. A majority of those that do tend to be born as upper middle class women which doesn’t make sense to me. For starters, most of these people come from well-off backgrounds with parents who are lawyers, doctors, businessmen etc who are most certainly participants within the stock market. Due to this, growing up they’re often able to have the luxury of affording the best education possible and usually don’t have to worry about money. I guess somewhere along the line the thought process shifts while attending one of those elite undergraduate schools due to all of the debt that is acquired which is no ones fault but their own. No one forced you to pursue a low-paying career while also taking out a boatload of debt to go to a prestigious undergrad so you can feel superior to everyone else. They end up adopting this kind of victim mentality where anyone who works in a high paying job like finance is automatically a bad person. Theres a good portion of people in these careers who work long, hard hours in order to improve their lives and the lives of their future families, but they end up being demonized because of this smart career choice. Do they not realize that the same people they demonize for contributing to a capitalistic society are also their own family members who at one point started from the very bottom as well? Their entire upbringing has been centered around capitalism and now that they’re struggling due to the life choices that have been made, they expect society to shift in order to cater to them.

Edit: The title still stands as correct. The paragraph is catered towards large metropolitan cities, specifically NYC, but you’ll find these people in every city.

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u/billy_bandito May 04 '21

OP do you think that you have to be a slave in order to think that slavery is bad? Perhaps you lived in a house that slaves built for your family, is it suddenly better because you personally benefited from that? Please reevaluate your arguement before I use some gamer words on you.

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u/SpookyTurkishKebab May 04 '21

It would probably be like this -I don't like living as a slave -Haha but you eat the food your master give you

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u/d1450 May 05 '21

This is one of my favorite arguments not in favor of the OP. However in this analogy why aren't you/they tearing down the house or handing it to slaves/disadvantaged family?

Also g*mer 🤮

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u/billy_bandito May 05 '21

Pardon my language, but G*sh dang it you're right!

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u/almon_m May 04 '21

Comparing capitalism to slavery? Try again

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u/janoseye May 04 '21

That’s not what his point is, he’s saying you can benefit from a system while at the same time realizing that it’s immoral

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u/almon_m May 04 '21

But you cant benefit from a system and then critisize it being immoral, ur benefitting from it. Thats just hypocrisy. Instead of actually doing anything these ppl just like pointing out how bad it is and then feeding it even more

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u/opersad May 04 '21

Where do you get that from? Many of them use their ressources to support the fight against capitalism

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u/almon_m May 04 '21

Fighting against capitalism with their new iphones and gucci bags whilest drinking starbucks... Almost all the "fighters against capitalism" i've seen support the biggest and morally worst companies out there

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u/janoseye May 04 '21

It’s not hypocrisy because they don’t have control over what economic system they live in lol.

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u/almon_m May 04 '21

You can decide how you affect the society you live in tho. Giving all ur money to the big corporations and then complaining that they're big is hypocrisy, buying overpriced clothing then complaining about how overpriced it is is hypocrisy. Only going to starbucks and then complaining about monopolies is hypocrisy. They all feed the cycle. And btw u can literally leave whenever u like if u dont like the system

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u/janoseye May 04 '21

I’d imagine most people who benefited from capitalism but seriously are critical of it would be engaged in some kind of activism, rather than buying designer handbags like the straw man some people in this thread have constructed.

All this gatekeeping about who is qualified to criticize our society has this kind of vibe to me: https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/036/647/Screen_Shot_2021-03-01_at_2.28.39_PM.png

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u/ShrinesOfParalysis May 04 '21

Their point makes sense. Spare us the moral outrage.

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u/shoricho May 04 '21

No it’s a logical fallacy. It’s an awful argument to make by assuming oh, just because you’re this = this, then you mean this?

I don’t know my list of fallacies by heart but it still is one.

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u/ShrinesOfParalysis May 04 '21

Analogies made to help illustrate a concept aren’t fallacies.

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u/IrrationalDesign May 04 '21

You have no idea what you're talking about.

OP suggests that criticism of capitalism is more valid when it comes from victims then when it comes from rich people. The commenter responds with 'that is analogous to slavery; you don't think only slaves can oppose slavery, do you?'. That analogy shows why OP's position is not a neutral, objective position; the analogy serves to explain why OP's main point is faulty. It's not a logical claim, it's not based on logical argument.

The response of 'comparing slavery to capitalism? Try again' is the faulty comment here. No one compared the severity and immorality of slavery to capitalism, the only thing that's compared is whether victims of a system have more authority to criticize that system. The suggestion that this analogy is a bad one just because slavery is ethically worse than capitalism is completely off base, it's a straw man. Nobody said 'capitalism is as bad as slavery'. To then say 'try again' as if the argument is debunked is incredibly weak, nothing was said against the validity of this comparison, so there is no need to 'try again' with another comparison or argument.

A comparison through an analogy is not the same as equating two things that are compared.

just because you’re this = this, then you mean this

I have no idea what fallacy you're referring to, but I'm sure it's not relevant here.

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u/ProbablyAnAlt42 May 04 '21

Do you have to have to have suffered under a system to recognize the flaws inherent in it? There. No fucking moral baggage for you to complain about. Now answer the question you dingus.

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u/Sergnb May 04 '21

It's literally not, what are you on about.

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u/almon_m May 04 '21

No it doesnt

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u/ShrinesOfParalysis May 04 '21

It makes sense if you have a brain.

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u/almon_m May 04 '21

Ah ok lemme try again, it makes sense but its so dumb and ignores too many major factors that it shouldn't even be accepted as an analogy. Would you like me to dumb it down even further?

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u/ShrinesOfParalysis May 04 '21

Nope it still makes sense if you have a brain.

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u/almon_m May 05 '21

I know it makes sense, u just dont understand it

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u/ShrinesOfParalysis May 05 '21

Nope.

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u/almon_m May 05 '21

Say something smart

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u/GlowingRedThorns May 04 '21

One of the main arguments against capitalism is that it is a form of slavery, my guy

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u/RuziaStein May 04 '21

Except communism literally benefits off of slave labor (see gulags or other work camps housing the states "enemies").

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u/anarcatgirl May 04 '21

America is literally doing this right now.

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u/RuziaStein May 04 '21

If you're talking about prison, see my response to the other guy

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u/GlowingRedThorns May 04 '21

Not going to get into a debate about communism here, but

Being anti-capitalist doesn’t automatically make you pro-communist

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u/RuziaStein May 04 '21

I never said you're pro-communist, I'm pointing out that you have a system (communism) that LITERALLY benefited from slave labor, not a form of slavery, the literal practice of it. This is why I have an issue with people who make the argument "Capitalism is like slavery" when that's not the case.

You can argue that capitalism is a form of slavery (see wage slaves for example), but I would counter that argument since people aren't forced to stick with the wages they have in a free market economy that Capitalism provides. A person in a gulag or labor camp; however, doesn't have the freedom to negotiate their wage or leave the camp, they'd get a bullet in the head instead.

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u/GlowingRedThorns May 04 '21

people aren’t forced to stick with the wages they have

I disagree. If the choices you have are 1. go into debt and be of a certain intellectual ability or 2. live on unsurvivable wages, then it’s not really a choice.

If the options of the uneducated/undereducated and poor are be overworked and abused (by management/coworkers/customers) for nickels and pennies or be homeless. That’s not really a choice.

Wage slavery isn’t just a metaphor. People give a majority of their lives to their employers who don’t even really see them as people and 99.9% of the time don’t treat them like people and pay them scraps. Under capitalism most people are one medical emergency away from bankruptcy.

That and prison slave labor.

Edit: you seem to be pushing the narrative that capitalism isn’t bad because “communism is worse”

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u/RuziaStein May 04 '21

Its hard to respond to your argument thoughtfully without understanding what you mean by intellectual and uneducated person, is it by actual mental competency or having a college degree?

Look, it seems like you're cherry picking extremes to bolster your argument (specifically how uneducated and poor people are being abused for nickles and pennies or are being paid scraps by their managers). I'm sure that is happening with folks who come into the country illegally, I don't agree with that practice which is why we persecute businesses that employ unauthorized immigrants to try and protect migrants from those business practices.

I'm pushing the narrative that capitalism isn't bad because Communism is worse, let me address this point directly:

  1. Capitalism has its shortfalls and isn't a perfect system. Any capitalist that says otherwise is naive, just like any communist claiming communism is a perfect system would be naive.

  2. Yes, Communism is a worse system than Capitalism, have you ever lived under a communist regime, or have family that has? My family fled the soviet union and I heard the stories they went through to get to America. They lost their citizenship and told they could never return and see their families. They had their valuables and money taken by the soldiers. They were only allowed 1 suitcase each. When they arrived to America they didn't know English and were still welcomed into the country. My grandparents, in addition to working, took English classes in the evening in order to have a competitive edge in the market. They did all of this without a college education mind you. I hope you never have to experience what its actually like to live under communist rule. But if that happens, maybe then my words will make sense to you.

I'm glad we agree that forced prison labor is bad though, even though you equate it to slavery.

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u/GlowingRedThorns May 04 '21 edited May 04 '21

it’s hard to respond to to argument thoughtfully without understanding what you mean by intellectual and uneducated person

What I meant by intellectually capable is people who are not effected by learning disabilities and mental illnesses that would keep them from earning a degree or learning a trade

looks like you’re cherry picking extremes to bolster your argument

No. It just seems you’ve lived a life of privilege if you think my example was by any means an extreme

To address your next long winded argument. Capitalism and Communism are not the only two choices and something is not NOT BAD because something else is worse. That’s logically fallacious. Even if I argue that we shouldn’t be a communist country, we shouldn’t be a capitalist one either.

Also I have no idea why your parents got kicked out of a communist country, so until I do I’m not going to assume their innocence and feel sorry for them. They could have been political adversaries or some shit.

Imagine trying to convince someone communism is evil because you got kicked out of the country. People get kicked out of capitalist countries today.

“My parents made it without college”. Oh, you mean back when going to college didn’t determine your life trajectory nearly to the extreme extent it does today, people were paid a living wage and college was affordable?

I’m glad we agree that forced prison labor is bad though, even though you equate it to slavery

It is slavery.

You know, for someone droning on about the horrors of communism, you seem to suffer from a severe lack of sympathy for the victims of capitalism.

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u/RuziaStein May 04 '21

No. It just seems you’ve lived a life of privilege if you think my example was by any means an extreme

This doesn't address the cherry picking, its just going after my perceived privilege.

Also I have no idea why your parents got kicked out of a communist country, so until I do I’m not going to assume their innocence and feel sorry for them. They could have been political adversaries or some shit.

They weren't kicked out, they simply asked to leave. When you leave the soviet union, they make you renounce your citizenship and you become a stateless person, you can't return to that country. There was no politics involved, it was a matter of wanting a better life and escaping Communism, something that the USSR didn't appreciate their citizens doing and would punish them for. I don't want to say it, but you seem like you have the kind of demeanor to want to punish an individual or family for wanting a better life.

Last comment on this because it's getting rather long, I'm genuinely curious though, if you don't think we should have a Capitalist or communist system, what type of system would you like to see?

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u/nexus8000 May 04 '21

That's how it is in every country. Do you think uneducated people working minimum jobs doesn't exist in other first world countries?

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u/GlowingRedThorns May 04 '21 edited May 04 '21

I don’t think that.

I also think minimum wage shouldn’t exist. Living wages and higher are the only wages that are acceptable.

To be fair to those places, they have exceedingly better civilian welfare/healthcare programs than america does too.

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u/nvdnqvi May 04 '21

have you ever heard of the american prison industrial complex?

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u/RuziaStein May 04 '21

pig wrangler

I think there is a loop hole within the penal/labor work laws which has expanded the prison industrial complex, specifically with private prisons. I think we should 100% include incarcerated folks under our labor laws to exclude them from forced labor. Not only that, I think their wages are severely low, I don't see why they can't be covered under the federal minimum wage. These are reforms that are already being worked on.

The difference between the American Prison industrial complex and Communism, one is a system that individuals find themselves in after being found guilty and duly convicted. The system isn't perfect ( you have innocent people found guilty and the reverse as well) but its better than communism's answer which is jailing political dissidents, undesirables (based off of race, religion, sexual preference, etc), and committing mass executions.

Yes the American Prison system is a problem but it's nothing compared to Communist gulags and labor camps.

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u/JiffyTube May 04 '21

this is such a bad faith argument lol.black people were thrown in jail to be slaves for loitering, drinking in public, being a nuisance, and literally anything under the sun that white people didn't like a black person doing. This all happened immediately after the slaves were "freed" just so they could go right back to being slaves in a jail.

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u/GlowingRedThorns May 04 '21

I was about to say lol america totally throws “undesirables” away for bullshit “crimes” or trumped up charges

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u/nvdnqvi May 04 '21

facts, also reagan literally planted crack in black communities and started the war on drugs in order to disproportionately target african americans.

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u/RuziaStein May 04 '21

Do white people not get thrown into jail for public intoxication or being a nuisance in public?

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u/GlowingRedThorns May 04 '21

one is a system that Individuals find themselves in after being found guilty and duly convicted

We have the highest percentage of our population imprisoned why do you think that is? Do you honestly think only a few “innocents” (hate that word in this context) are thrown in?

“It is too easy to convict an innocent person. The rate of wrongful convictions in the United States is estimated somewhere between 2-10 percent. That may sound low, but when applied to an estimated prison population of 2.3 million, the numbers become staggering”

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u/c3drewc May 04 '21

We call those correctional institutions in America, where we lock up large portions of our people and then work them in the fields or in a manufacturing plant for about a dollar a day

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u/Ajogen May 04 '21

Lol like us prisons and banana republics isn’t slavery

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u/JiffyTube May 04 '21

just curious are you aware of the fact that despite being the land of the free America has more prisoners (slaves) than anywhere else in the world? we actually have 1/3 of the prison population (in the whole world) right here in america. And did you also know slavery is legal when punishable by crime?

Also are you aware of the fact that America was built on indentured servitude and slavery? Are you also aware that the civil war was fought because people thought that they literally needed slavery to allow capitalism to work?

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u/RuziaStein May 04 '21

You should look up the difference between the practice of slavery and prison. I already addressed that our prison system needs some serious reform, you're beating a dead horse.

Jiffy you proved the point that slavery isn't a practice common with Capitalism hence why we fought a war to end it. You look at the Eastern world and they still practice slavery today whereas we don't. You can try to equate that we do because we have prisons but again, look up the difference between the practice of slavery and prison, they two aren't the same.

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u/Astrophobia42 May 04 '21

I already addressed that our prison system needs some serious reform, you're beating a dead horse.

But you are not getting that the reform is not happening because it's profitable. Capitalism is motivating this.

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u/JiffyTube May 04 '21

oh wow someone who has 2 brain cells. Its funny that you say capitalism doesnt need slavery despite fighting a war over it and then after said war after slavery is abolished the PIC is born but you dont see the parallels. mmmk

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u/BrusherPike May 04 '21

That is product of authoritarianism, not necessarily a product of communism. (You may argue that all communism necessarily devolves into authoritarianism, but that is a different and much more nuanced discussion)

Also, capitalism benefits from slavery as well? We outlawed it, but if the law wasn't there capitalism would do it again in a heartbeat. (also, we outsourced our slavery to the global south, so it's not really "gone" anyway) Capitalism doesn't have a monopoly on laws.

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u/almon_m May 04 '21

Because you have to work? Thats not how slavery works

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u/GlowingRedThorns May 04 '21

Wrong.

I’ve already explained how it’s considered slavery in my comments to another poster.

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u/almon_m May 04 '21

What u write to another poster is not my problem, im not gonna stalk ur profile for ur opinions. You can leave a capitalist society whenever you please, therefore it isnt slavery. That simple, if u cant understand that then u must be quite simple urself

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u/opersad May 04 '21

"You can leave a capitalist society whenever you please" Effectively not really, no.

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u/GlowingRedThorns May 04 '21

Exactly, with what money am I to leave?

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u/almon_m May 04 '21

Go live in the woods. Get a job and with ur paycheck move to a communist country. Why would u need money if ur leaving capitalism?

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u/GlowingRedThorns May 04 '21

go live in the woods

So trespassing on private or government property?

get a job and with ur paycheck move to a communist country

With the expenses of being alive there is no possible way someone on minimum wage (hell not even double min wage) could fund such a move and the entire time you’re desperately trying to save money for the move you’re still STUCK in a capitalist society

why would you need money if you’re leaving capitalism

Are you...an idiot?

Edit: why do we keep talking about communism here by the way? Being anti capitalism does not make you a communist

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u/almon_m May 04 '21

Yes, you literally can. You just dont want to.

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u/opersad May 05 '21

Then tell me where please.

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u/GlowingRedThorns May 04 '21

So you won’t read my comments and you’ll also strawman my original comment to you?

Who is the simple one here?

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u/almon_m May 04 '21

I wont search for ur comments towards other people, how big of an ego do u have to have to think that people should look through ur history to discuss anything with u? And somehow its a strawman when i explain how capitalism isnt slavery to someone who said capitilism is slavery. Are u like 12 or something?

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u/GlowingRedThorns May 04 '21

are you like 12 or something

A solid question id ask you considering your response to my comment was “how is it slavery, because you have to work?” when I never said anything even implicating that

Feel free to read or not read my comments elsewhere. It just makes you seem like an idiot to comment hours after that conversation to try to make my argument seem like it’s “slavery = having to work” when that conversation proved otherwise 🤷‍♀️

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u/almon_m May 04 '21

Hours after the conversation, as if im on reddit 24/7 discussing this shit. Ur the one that wasnt willing to make a point yet ur still here, so if ur not planning to elaborate on your thoughts then just dont bother replying at all

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u/peacock_trickster May 04 '21

Work or Die is not freedom.

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u/YstavKartoshka May 04 '21

Work* or Die

*The majority of your productivity will go to people higher up the chain than you.

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u/apina324 May 04 '21

That’s how it has been all of history on every single species. That’s the law of nature. Can you point out the time when working wasn’t a living condition for majority of people or any other animal?

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u/peacock_trickster May 04 '21

So was dying from simple diseases, murder, and rape. You may not think that those things are equivalent but they remained the norm until the standard changed. Change the standard.

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u/apina324 May 04 '21

The idea of not ever working is pretty far fetched idea currently and im not even sure it’s even completely possible. Work isn’t going anywhere, there will always be work to do. Even if we automate low-skill labor the demand for higher skilled labor rises. Just like automating car productlines doesn’t take away more jobs than it creates, because when fewer people are needed to do less work it creates growth thus more jobs.

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u/peacock_trickster May 04 '21

By your own admission low-skill labor will be automated away. Did you know the same thing is happening with high education/skill jobs like Lawyers, Nurses, Lab Technicians, and Doctors. It is very much a possibility that most if not ALL jobs in the next 50-100 years will be done by a "robot". Why should people suffer and die from lack of work instead of allowing automation and the economy to flourish while simultaneously inaugurating a UBI for the benefit of the nation and world as a whole?

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u/apina324 May 04 '21

Because current automation is really expensive or ineffective compared to manual labor(otherwise manual labor would’ve been replaced or replacing would be more rapid) and automation isn’t nearly enough advanced to take over. The UBI point is fair, but its major drawback is that it doesn’t incentive work as it being currently a major living condition. Remember that the workers are backbone of growth and capital. If there’s no work being done there’s no taxes, no UBI.

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u/peacock_trickster May 04 '21

I take your point but my main summary was to expect a high-value AI worker and operator in the next 50-100 years. As far as expense that will not always be a problem as technology and innovation have demonstrated almost from their inception. UBI will not disincentives work but incentivize not working when that becomes more practical and necessary. Your looking at economics as we know it today. Not as it will necessarily have to function in the future.

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u/apina324 May 04 '21

Never said that UBI will disincentive work, but that it will not incentive work. Also I understand that you’re partially true about automation, I myself am a bit more on the conservative side about when automation will become the new standard. But until then the world has to change little by little to not collapse civilization. Yeah I know i’m looking economics as how they are today, but that’s my point there isn’t an immediate need for socialism. Also predicting the future especially the far of future when automation is possible is quite hard and shouldn’t be emphasized on as much. We need to fix our current problems and then plan for the future.

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u/RacistsAreFacts May 04 '21

That’s how it has been all of history on every single species.

So don't pretend there's anything great about capitalism.

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u/apina324 May 04 '21

Bro what are you saying. I said that working is a living condition no matter the economic system, so you really can’t argue that system is ”flawed” and ”broken” if the majority of people have to work, since if that was the case there isn’t really a better alternative in that matter.

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u/RacistsAreFacts May 04 '21

Working in general yes, working at the direction of others no. There is a hugely important distinction there that needs to be recognized. If capitalism can't do better than that then maybe it's time for some changes.

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u/apina324 May 04 '21

Working at the directions of others was one basics of society. You work for other poeple’s needs and they work for you. I guess if you’re meaning that the working class works for the rich but the rich doesn’t work for them that’s a flaw. And if you meant it like that I completely agree with you that it’s flawed and there needs to be change.

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u/RacistsAreFacts May 04 '21

Society in the sense you call it is the progenitor of modern Capitalism. I agree with you - this problem is an old one.

And yes, the problem is not simply work at the direction of others, but a lack of choice not to work at the direction of others. It is slavery with extra steps. All people deserve the right to work only for themselves, as the wealthiest may.

It is absolutely abhorrent that there are people who can earn luxurious incomes, literally enough to buy yachts, without work - simply by virtue of capital ownership - and their income can rely almost exclusively on the labor of those who would not freely choose to sell their labor, at least not in the capacity they are currently, but only do so so they may survive, and who get paid very near the legally allowed minimum.

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u/apina324 May 04 '21

Not working for others is quite impossible in modern society. And changing the economic system won’t fix that. You’d need to get rid of society for that, and that’s pretty far fetched if you ask me.

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u/d1450 May 05 '21

Working in general yes, working at the direction of others no.

If you live in the US you have one of the best opportunities to work for yourself. Start a farm, a business, a service, whatever you want! Not-at-the-direction-of-others opportunities PLURAL! Do you think communism will just let you claim a plot of land without payment? Socialism will let you build an office without savings? Let you sell a service without authorization? Where?! What!? Are you going to travel back in time where you can truly be subsistent and sovereign ?

What change do you have in mind? Tell me! What better system do you have ?

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u/RacistsAreFacts May 05 '21

If you live in the US you have one of the best opportunities to work for yourself.

All the things you follow with are ways of working for others.

What change do you have in mind? Tell me! What better system do you have ?

A system which says people have a right to live even if others don't get anything out of it. A system in which everyone can choose to direct their own wealth the way the wealthiest do. More human rights - nothing capitalists want. Capitalists think all human rights were elucidated hundreds of years ago.

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u/d1450 May 05 '21

lol so you want a system that takes care of all of your basic necessities were you don't have to work at all? Can you give me an example of such a form of government?

What in your mind are some examples of "not working for the direction of others" ? This should be good.

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u/IrrationalDesign May 04 '21

There are lots of animals living in situations where their survival is not immediately threatened and where they didn't need to constantly fight for survival. Orca's have it pretty easy. Polar bears had it easy (before man came and fucked their shit up). As did bees, and galapagos turtles, sponges, sharks, many species of spider, bison, rhino's... the suggestion that every animal has to work some amount (which by itself is totally true), therefore it's pointless to try and inprove a societal system that exploits workers and rewards a very thin upper class is not based on logic whatsoever. There are even countries where not having a job doesn't mean you die, exploitation is not the norm and you shouldn't pretend it is.

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u/apina324 May 04 '21

Well when you listed bunch of animals who ”don’t have to work for living”, did you remember that they actaully do have to. For example you listed polar bears as not in an immediate danger becaude they’re not fighting for their lives from other animals, that may be true but they also have to eat something or they will die of hunger and food doesn’t just appear just like it is for humans.

Never said that we shouldn’t help and improve peoples lives. Just bringing out the truth that you have to work to some degree to be a functioning member of society. Since without workers a society couldn’t exist. Never also said about exploitation being fine or the norm, just said that working in a form or another is basically a must for majority of people(even the CEOs have to work contrary to what bunch of people think).

When it came to the statement ”work or die”, it came off as not wanting to work and being entitled to being taken care by society without contributing to society. Not as maybe give workers rights and improve society.

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u/IrrationalDesign May 04 '21

you listed bunch of animals who ”don’t have to work for living”

I didn't do that, I listed animals who don't have to constantly fight for survival.

But yeah, I don't disagree with the core of what you're saying. I think I came at this as if you were the most extreme, while in reality what you said makes sense. We can't disregard 'work or die' completely, but we shouldn't 'live to work' either. There's a middle ground.

I agree that the vast majority of people will have to 'work' in some way shape or form to keep society stable. I also think the current western capitalist system needs a lot of work (and I'm not opposed to basic income or a more socialistic capitalism) but that doesn't take away that some 'work' is required. That work would ideally be motivated by free will and passion instead of force and desperation, but work is work nonetheless.

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u/[deleted] May 04 '21

[deleted]

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u/peacock_trickster May 04 '21

I don't play video games but I do read a lot, some of which is about finance and the basis of our (USA) economy and others. Explain the addition of a Wall Street Broker to the economy as a whole and the net benefit our society receives from such an individual? Are you willing to defend the basis of Capitalism as a Meritocracy?

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u/BuddhaFacepalmed May 04 '21

Are you willing to defend the basis of Capitalism as a Meritocracy?

Narrator: They aren't.

And meritocracy has always been a myth.

3

u/peacock_trickster May 04 '21

Namaste. 🙏

0

u/syregeth May 04 '21

you fucking destroyed them, thank you

1

u/d1450 May 05 '21

No you're right, in communism and socialism all of your basic needs are met and you don't have to work at all (or "suffer" as I've seen it so finely put throughout this thread)

Also, if the US were to switch to socialism, what makes you think oligarchs and authoritarians at the top won't use the restructure to further set back the disadvantaged and gain a larger portion of power? This is why people argue for correcting the system we have (that and some of us lived in several forms of government and see the privilege we have from experience)

0

u/almon_m May 04 '21

Its the closest thing to freedom. You can leave whenever you like tho, but u choose to stay

1

u/peacock_trickster May 04 '21

Oh so you think if a person is unhappy with their living situation or system of government should be able to leave their country and go to another? Me too. That's why I support my undocumented friends.

1

u/almon_m May 04 '21

Immigration should be made easier for everyone tbh

2

u/peacock_trickster May 04 '21

I agree, I'm actually hoping to immigrate to another country in the next 2 years and it's a pain in the ass. Mostly because of tons of beurocracy due to wealthy capitalists moving countries for tax write-offs.

1

u/almon_m May 04 '21

Good look with that

2

u/YstavKartoshka May 04 '21

I invite you to coconut island.

1

u/Biono03 May 04 '21

There are currently more slaves in our capitalist world than there has ever been before

-2

u/almon_m May 04 '21

Omg u have to have a job basically a slave

3

u/Biono03 May 04 '21

Uhmm no I was referring more to the literal slaves in the prison system that are paid a couple bucks for a full day of work if they’re lucky enough to get paid but ok

2

u/Biono03 May 04 '21

Uhmm no I was referring more to the literal slaves in the prison system that are paid a couple bucks for a full day of work if they’re lucky enough to get paid but ok

1

u/99percentmilktea May 04 '21

The number of (literal, not wage) slaves today are higher than any time in modern history. The reason most of them are enslaved, btw, is so capitalists can pay as little as possible for labor in order to sell you a cornucopia of cheap chocolate, clothing, electronics, etc.

1

u/Sergnb May 04 '21 edited May 04 '21

I love when people are so blinded by reactionary contrarianism they suddenly forget how analogies work.

1

u/almon_m May 04 '21

It doesnt work because its dumb and ignorant. You are free to leave a capitalist society whenever you please, and u compare it to slavery thats only escapable by death... Are their people that would kill u for leaving a capitalist society? No. Therefore bad analogy.

0

u/Sergnb May 04 '21

... Mate, it was not a direct comparison. Do you not know what an analogy or an illustrative example is? Are you in second grade or something?

1

u/almon_m May 04 '21

And I critisized it for not being a good analogy. The situations are not similar so comparing them is dumb. I dont think u understand...

0

u/Sergnb May 04 '21

You did not understand the analogy and therefore have no grounds to criticize it.

1

u/almon_m May 04 '21

I understood it, but it doesnt even have grounds to give itself credibility. You really dont get it do you? You cant use literally anything as an analogy or point of comparison

1

u/Sergnb May 04 '21 edited May 04 '21

He compared the nature of the argument, not the two things themselves. You don't know what's the difference between a comparison and an analogy. You understood nothing.

Now get blocked you endlessly contrarian summer child.

1

u/almon_m May 04 '21

And the natuee of the argument still sucks cuz the factors differ... Yeah ur dumb alright

0

u/Grouchy_Fauci May 04 '21

Oof. You don’t understand how analogies work, because nobody was comparing capitalism to slavery.

0

u/almon_m May 04 '21

Comparing the criticism of capitilism whilest beneffiting it, to the criticism of slavery whilest beniffiting from it. Not sure u understand analogies bud

0

u/Grouchy_Fauci May 04 '21

I understand analogies just fine, which is why I knew OP wasn’t comparing capitalism to slavery. Good try though.

0

u/almon_m May 04 '21

Ah ok so u dont have anything to say gotcha

0

u/Grouchy_Fauci May 04 '21

I’d suggest reading this to better understand what analogies are and aren’t. Not sure what else needs to be said on this point.

0

u/almon_m May 04 '21

a comparison between one thing and another, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification Thats the definition, i argues its not a good comparison. My arguments makes sense, stop tryna cope

0

u/Grouchy_Fauci May 04 '21

Look, it’s not that complicated. No reason you should be having this much trouble with a simple analogy.

The things being compared were not capitalism and slavery. OP wasn’t saying “capitalism is like slavery”. That’s not what the analogy means.

The things being compared were criticism of capitalism and criticism of slavery. Maybe the nuance is lost on you and that’s the problem you’re having? Could that be it? You just don’t understand nuance and you don’t see the distinction? There’s really no other explanation.

0

u/almon_m May 04 '21

Ah so you still dont understand. The comparison is flawed. That simple

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u/Sir__Dilly May 04 '21

Comparing working to make money to working because you are owned by another human is sad.

You know you would still have to work right? You would just get taxed out of the wazoo to pay for things instead of paying out of pocket when something happens.

21

u/BucheTacoooo May 04 '21

Go to Google. Type in Dictionary.com. Find analogy. Read it.

-11

u/Sir__Dilly May 04 '21

I could just google analogy. Takes less steps. I am aware what an analogy is. But I have found some analogies take away from what they draw the comparison to. Like calling Trump Hitler. Or capitalism to slavery.

Some lines dont need drawn.

7

u/BucheTacoooo May 04 '21

You can agree that one of those has far more similarities than the other. That's kind of what makes it a good analogy or not. No one was comparing the 2 in equality. They made an analogy on their similarities. Why am I spelling this out for you? I understand your minor point, there will be people that also don't understand analogies and will truly believe trump is Hitler.... Those people are also stupid and I don't concern myself with them.

27

u/billy_bandito May 04 '21

What?

-27

u/Sir__Dilly May 04 '21

I see the point you are trying to make. But comparing capitalism to slavery is sad

30

u/ShrinesOfParalysis May 04 '21

It must be awful to be so dumb.

20

u/billy_bandito May 04 '21

There is no comparison. Slavery was the analogy. I was hoping most level headed people are aware that slavery is bad and you don't personally have to be a slave to know that. You may also use: being stabbed sucks yet I don't have to have been stabbed to know it sucks.

8

u/lolthatscoolbro May 04 '21

Damn, you're kinda dumb. Ngl

1

u/Sir__Dilly May 04 '21

Well thank you kind sir.

-8

u/CCAlkie May 04 '21

To expand on OP's argument I don't personally have a problem with people who previously used the benefits of capitalism to now advocate for the supremacy of socialism - shit worked for them for a while but now they think differently and would like to see things changed.

The problem I have is with what was described in an above comment as "champagne" or "iphone" socialists. People that actively contribute to capitalism, benefit from it, then call for its destruction.

Some folks love to mock people who criticize socialists for owning things like an iPhone saying "well of course I need it in today's age otherwise i can't be connected to the world". "You criticize society yet you participate in it. Curious." Hilarious. The underlying problem here isn't that people are using phones but more specifically iPhones, created by Apple, which uses every ethically fucked up method within capitalism they possibly can to make as much money as they can. Another example is Beyonce selling Feminist shirts which are manufactured by exploiting the female labor of overseas sweatshops (I think she saw this shit going on and shut it down? Not positive)

If you advocate that society should shift from capitalism to socialism, you should not be contributing to goods and services that directly benefit the current capitalistic model. You should not own an iPhone. You should not be paying for a Netflix subscription. If you do, fine, but you're a hypocrite and your opinion should be taken with a grain of salt.

7

u/billy_bandito May 04 '21

Ah, the iPhone arguement, what a surprise. If I had a dollar everytime heard that one I could spend the rest of my life just teaching people that socialism DOES NOT mean we stop getting the same goods and services that we get under capitalism. Socialism is about improving the methods in which these goods and services are manufactured as well as the lives and well being of the people who ACTUALLY put the hard labour into the manufacturing them.

-3

u/CCAlkie May 04 '21

I'm not arguing that an iPhone can't be made under socialism. I'm arguing that it currently isn't and Apple readily exploits every available loophole through capitalistic infrastructure to maximize profits. I'm arguing that if someone advocates for socialism, they should not be rewarding Apple and other companies that seek to exploit the capitalistic system because they are in that moment propogating capitalism.

That person wants all the good of socialism without putting the necessary work in to bring that about. That makes them a hypocrite and means they don't want to live in the world they preach about.

Again I don't have a problem with socialism and I'm not really against capitalism either, I just want people to be consistent in what they're asking for.

3

u/JoogaMaestro May 04 '21

So you agree this is completely immaterial to the actual criticism being levied then?

0

u/CCAlkie May 04 '21

You'll have to expand on that a little more. I'm not sure what you're asking.

1

u/Whale042 May 04 '21 edited May 04 '21

they should not be rewarding Apple and other companies that seek to exploit the capitalistic system because they are in that moment propogating capitalism.

  1. But it's the same buying from any company as they are still suporting capitalism. The only way a socialist could not support capitalism would be to buy exclusively from worker coops, but most people don't have that choice.
  2. Do you oppose child labour? I assume that you do. Do you buy electronics, which are often built from materials mined by child slaves? Do you make sure that all of the clothes you buy aren't made by children working in sweatshops? So many products are produced by unethical means, it's almost impossible to make sure that everything you buy is ethically sourced.

1

u/CCAlkie May 05 '21
  1. What I'm saying is a company like Apple is notoriously capitalist. Someone who wants to change the economic system should not be supporting a company that uses the current one with such fervent passion otherwise they are perpetuating the very thing they're wanting to get rid of for their own comfort/pleasure. I linked smart phone company in another comment that manufactures smartphones as ethically as they can. Wouldn't a socialist advocate rather spend their money supporting that competition?
  2. I'm not claiming that I have a system which better replaces the current one. Child labor is fucked but I accept that it is used by many companies to give me cheaper products just as many others will remain willfully ignorant to how the sausage gets made so to speak. If someone truly wishes to change this situation they should be making every effort to show those that employ it that they won't stand for it.

Again I don't have a problem with the ideology, I have a problem with hypocrites. You can maintain ideological high ground as a socialist by minimizing the amount of support you give to capitalism.

3

u/Pannonian_Sailor May 04 '21

What are the socialism approved smartphones? Idk, if you noticed but every big company behaves the same way. Singling out apple makes no sense.

1

u/CCAlkie May 04 '21

https://www.fairphone.com/en/

This is evidently a phone company who strives to making smartphones ethical. I found it by Googling "buy ethical smartphone"

I only singled out Apple because I'm more familiar with their manufacturing process. I'm sure Google does the same thing.

2

u/Pannonian_Sailor May 04 '21

It runs android...

Regardless, my point was that every big company is the same not just in the tech sector. It's impossible to avoid capitalism in every aspect of your life unless you are a monk.

1

u/CCAlkie May 04 '21

Again I don't have a problem with socialists participating in a capitalist society. Of course it's practically impossible to avoid that. I'm referring to hypocrite socialists who actively support capitalism by doing things like buying new iPhones which are known to be manufactured as capitalistically as possible when they could lessen their contribution to the system by buying 3rd party or something.