r/CryptoCurrency Platinum | QC: CC 40 Apr 01 '23

Allegedly, Binance was found to be heavily insider trading. With their massive size, how much of crypto markets and its prices are really real? DISCUSSION

Binance was found to be insider trading with literally hundreds of accounts owned directly or indirectly by CZ through an investigation by the CFTC. Some have said that you should trust CEX and have your own custody of funds but that is very short-sighted and fails to see the big issue here.

The Binance platform held close to 70% market share before the allegations. This means that their actions contribute, generally, to 70% of the prices that Cefi/CEX’s contribute to a general token price. And Cefi currently contributes 6.4 times to the general market price than Defi(at least for Bitcoin), such that Binance contributes around 60% to a token general market price.

Thus, any price/market manipulation by Binance has a huge effect on the market price, especially with hundreds of entities doing insider trading either on behalf of and in partnership with Binance/CZ. So this is where we ask ourselves the hard question, how much of trading and prices is actually real? Sure the tech is still there and the utility also still remains present, but we all know most people are in it for the profit. Let’s not delude ourselves. We see how bear markets affect the activity of the millions of sub members here alone. How much of the prices that we see and that we celebrate are…well artificial, are not real? And then what does that mean for crypto?

Credit to u/MilesPower here for the initial piece:

https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/123t192/binance_traded_against_customers_with/

577 Upvotes

449 comments sorted by

328

u/Florian995 Tin Apr 01 '23

Since Binance is the biggest player the price of BNB is probably pure fake

116

u/partymsl Platinum | QC: CC 702 | r/WSB 16 Apr 01 '23

Just looking at how well it has stood this bear market makes that obvious.

I see nearly no one here actually seriously buying BNB because they like it, at most people buy it for fees.

40

u/Nathhfh Permabanned Apr 01 '23 All-Seeing Upvote

Just looking at how well it has stood this bear market makes that obvious.

Right? BTC at its bottom crashed 75-76% from its ATH. BNB crashed only 68-69%.

How on earth does any coin hold up better than BTC in a bear market?!?

15

u/Jocogui Bronze | 6 months old | QC: CC 15 Apr 01 '23

Because: Btc doesn't burn tokens from time to time. Btc isn't a company which can hold it's own tokens. Btc isn't a company with tokens belonging to VCs and being locked unable to be sold. Btc doesn't do buybacks as a company can make at anytime.

63

u/Elie0_0 Apr 01 '23 edited Apr 01 '23

Because it's backed by Binance.

It's tied to a company, much like stocks. Everyone believes in Binance the company, not many believe other coins.

They don't have a company to back them up, and such a known and loved exchange at that.

30

u/Baecchus Platinum | QC: CC 541 | r/WSB 11 Apr 01 '23

People keep saying we should invest in coins with an actual use case.

BSC is thriving and BNB is constantly used. It can also be used to pay fees on Binance. Sounds like an use case to me...

52

u/Giga79 Silver | QC: CC 404, ETH 125 | LRC 55 | TraderSubs 47 Apr 01 '23

Binance frequently accrues more fee revenue than Bitcoin while charging each user 1/100 as much. BNB may be the biggest use case for crypto today.

The people in here are kind of hilarious. I agree with you entirely. They'd rather invest in a chain that earns $7000 in revenue a day (cough Cardano) than something generating $700,000 or $7,000,000 per day, because reasons. There's absolutely a line dividing senseless speculation and actual utility, but many in here treat both as exactly the same thing.

What Binance accomplished would be like if SOL or BCH (which both have scaled more than BTC) accrued more fees than Bitcoin, which would be absurd. BCH generated $45 today as a reference.

I don't like Binance or CZ but I'm not delusional about his success either. He was basically first to deploy a 'free Ethereum chain', filling exactly what the market demands were, nobody should be surprised it's popular. Matic is popular too, yet far from ideal. I'm curious how BNB will be able to compete with Coinbase's new Base L2 or other 'free' L2's that are decentralized and as cheap - but until then I expect BNB to only rise. Everybody uses Binance is absolutely a great use case for a fee token.

https://cryptofees.info/

8

u/TheOtherCoolCat Apr 01 '23

Idk if Base is gonna be any success. The success of Bnb comes from timing, they were in the right place at the right time. The boom of blockchain gaming, yield farming and all that was unique to that time. There might be another boom, for something new, maybe, but who knows really

5

u/Giga79 Silver | QC: CC 404, ETH 125 | LRC 55 | TraderSubs 47 Apr 01 '23

Demand for ETH blockspace is still totally absurd today. There's not been a block that wasn't full for years, even now it's still far too congested for most people and use cases.

I think there's always going to be a huge demand for cheap decentralized blockspace, moreso if it can plug right into ETH's network effect.

I don't think Base will be an immediate success but I'd hope people would migrate from 'A' to 'B' is A is centralized and B is decentralized. If not, I don't think centralization is sustainable so will hurt itself sooner or later giving people only option B in the end.

Base will also support Solana so it'll bring liquidity and people in from that ecosystem to Ethereum's, too. Maybe Optimism, which Base (L3) is a fork of, would be a better competitor to BNB than Base. I just don't see BNB's value proposition in a future after blockchain tech evolves to offer BNB's utility and fees on a decentralized network instead of their own.

Maybe I'm niave and living too far in crypto ideals but I think Base aligns with crypto much more, uses better tech, and so will succeed in this market. Time will tell.

12

u/Izzeheh Apr 01 '23

You make good points amid this sea of wild speculation. Keep spreading facts.

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u/Ok_Appointment2593 Tin Apr 01 '23

I'm running a grid bot in it precisely because of this

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u/HashSlingingSlasherJ Platinum | QC: CC 266 Apr 01 '23

“Everyone believes in Binance the company” I get the point you were trying to make but I disagree. Binance is shady af

2

u/TheFamousHesham Platinum | QC: CC 47 Apr 01 '23

Cries in CRO

2

u/TrueBirch Apr 02 '23

That's starting to sound an awful lot like a security

1

u/KingofTheTorrentine Platinum | QC: CC 42 Apr 01 '23

It's a security. That's a fucking security. That's what securities are for.

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u/TheOtherCoolCat Apr 01 '23

BNB is one of the most used chains out there, lots if transactions per day that all burn bnb. It is also used for fees on the exchange that has the highest volume of all. So I'll say that bnb price is probably not pure fake

12

u/Elie0_0 Apr 01 '23

One rumor and everything they've every done is suddenly fake

People are too ready to jump to conclusions

3

u/TheOtherCoolCat Apr 01 '23

And he gets over 120 upvotes for that, just because everyone here has a hard-on for the potential failure of Binance/CZ

3

u/illyaeater Apr 01 '23

I mean, reddit already incentivizes having the popular opinion. Imagine if you add money to that equation. It's like 2x the diarrhea.

3

u/LightninHooker Silver | QC: CC 940, DOT 15 | BANANO 85 Apr 01 '23

MTGOX was the first using bots to pump BTC to 1k.

"It is fake price"

You know how the history went. I know this sub hates BNB but people do love that shit and they love shitcoining.

And nothing come close to BNB shitcoining paradise

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u/Prize-Reference9329 Apr 01 '23

I wondered why bnb resist so well in the bear market. here is the answer

4

u/Usr0017 Platinum | QC: CC 46 Apr 01 '23

BNB has always been their money-printing coin.

2

u/BountyBard Apr 01 '23

BNB has always been their magic genie coin, granting endless riches to those who hold it.

3

u/Nathhfh Permabanned Apr 01 '23

Since Binance is the biggest player the price of BNB is probably pure fake

Just look at its price action. While every other coin crashed 75-90% BNB has never had a daily close touch 70% below its ATH.

Max was 69% below. In contrast BTC crashed 76% at its bottom. How the hell is that even possible?

19

u/Giga79 Silver | QC: CC 404, ETH 125 | LRC 55 | TraderSubs 47 Apr 01 '23

Because BNB is a fee token for Binance, it has more utility than BTC. When the market is especially volitile, people use Binance more not less. If the market looked like it was going to $0 tomorrow BNB's accrued fees would be off the wall, driving BNB up as everything fell down.

It's like asking why the person selling shovels is only down 70% when the gold miner is down 90%. They're different businesses with different inputs and outputs.. When the price of gold looks like its coming back the shovel salesman will do more sales than the gold miner, only when gold is at its peak is the miner the richest.

1

u/sablexxxt Permabanned Apr 01 '23

Thanks for this balanced answer

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u/Baecchus Platinum | QC: CC 541 | r/WSB 11 Apr 01 '23

Playing devil's advocate here.

1- There is an incentive to hold BNB because it can be used to pay fees.

2- The ecosystem is thriving, BNB is used constantly. BSC is the god of shitcoin creation.

3- It's tied to Binance. People who assume Binance will succeed also assume BNB will perform well.

Every coin is manipulated one way or the other. In comparison MATIC is up 125% against Bitcoin and up 250% against USD since Jun 2022. It's also up over 100% against BNB. Just saying.

3

u/Lillica_Golden_SHIB Bronze | BANANO 5 | TraderSubs 13 Apr 02 '23

Well, Jim Cramer has just said he doesn't believe in Binance anymore. This pretty much sealed BNB's fate. Probably a top 3 crypto before long.

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u/lukekibs Tin Apr 01 '23

Manipulation is how it’s possible. That’s the only explanation for it. Binance probably holds the majority of BNB anyways and when everything was dumping they were just holding and possibly even buying more. Please get rid of exchange coins they don’t help anyone other than the exchange

7

u/Nathhfh Permabanned Apr 01 '23

Binance probably holds the majority of BNB anyways and when everything was dumping they were just holding and possibly even buying more

Thats actually a brilliant theory. With the immense profit they made in the last cycle they can easily afford to buy back and even burn coins to stabilize the price.

6

u/Kumomax1911 Silver | QC: CC 373, ETH 18 | EOS 382 Apr 01 '23

It's not a theory... Binance has done plenty of public buy backs and burns. It's in their white paper. They burn BNB from exchange profits. Another use case, but a clear security. That's a large reason why BNB is avoided by U.S. exchanges.

1

u/Elie0_0 Apr 01 '23 edited Apr 01 '23

That's because they have the exchange Binance behind it, it gives people more confidence in investing in a coin of such a known exchange.

More like a stock. It's related to the company.

We shouldn't jump to conclusions already that they were manipulating the market, these are only rumors so far.

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u/sarfian Tin | ADA 8 Apr 01 '23

As they were able to manipulate other tokens price, it’s undeniable that they did the same with their own one

1

u/Baecchus Platinum | QC: CC 541 | r/WSB 11 Apr 01 '23

It's pretty blatant. BNB pumps and dumps extremely fast and the chart moves unlike anything else.

-1

u/[deleted] Apr 01 '23 edited Apr 01 '23

[deleted]

11

u/[deleted] Apr 01 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/Pure-Classic-1757 Apr 01 '23

It’s the same thing they did with stock trading. No fees or low fees but in turn sold the order flow. Idk if Binance sells their order flow yet, but they almost certainly trade upon it themselves. It’s just like most things that seem great for the plebs it actually hurts you more even though it sounds great at first.

3

u/GabeSter Platinum | QC: DOGE 2476, CC 909 | AvatarTrading 18 Apr 01 '23 edited Apr 01 '23

If you try to take your money out of Binance they charge a premium to transfer to native chains. They instead encourage users to transfer out the funds as a token on the BNB chain with lower fees. Where you leave the real asset with Binance.

That is disgusting.

5

u/Ankzar11 Bronze | CRO 8 Apr 01 '23

The way you're putting this it makes it look like it's the only exchange doing that. But it's not, every other exchange does the same, and you can usually use other supported networks not just BSC.

4

u/DeviMon1 Platinum | QC: CC 300 | r/CMS 10 | PCgaming 68 Apr 01 '23

You can transfer out XRP or XLM for next to no fees on binance, while Coinbase actually charges for that and basically pockets the money. Since the actual transaction fees for those cryptos are miniscule.

1

u/mcMoonberry Redditor for 1 month. Apr 01 '23

Plenty of L2's for cheaper Eth loopring etc.

You were just too much of a pleb to look so decided to suck the nearest cock.

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u/padizzledonk A Whales Vagina Apr 01 '23

Likely a lot

There is a LOT of market manipulation in this space, partly because of the complete opaqueness of it and the total lack of regulations surrounding reporting, and partly because of the size of the market and its individual assets, let me explain-

The U.S Capital Market is 40Trillion dollars, a 100M dollars is a lot of money, but if you put a 100M into the Stock Market it won't even notice, if you put the whole 100M into the largest company on the stock market (Apple) you might bump the price of Apple stock up a fraction of a %, that's 600k shares you're buying out of 16 BILLION shares...you would barely, if at all, move the price of Apple, let alone the prices of all the rest of the market......The Capital Market is just too damn big.

If you put a 100M into Bitcoin or Etherium you will raise the price, enough to make it worth your effort, but you will also raise the price of the rest of the market, if you target eth you'll raise it more, if you go after even smaller cap tokens or coins you will raise it a significant amount.

You could essentially print money fairly easily once you are dealing with big enough piles of money. There is no individual or even small group of individuals that can really move the US Capital Markets in any significant way, its just too big, but 1 individual can absolutely move the crypto market, and absolutely move the price of the top 10 individuals, to greater degrees as you go down the list

20

u/Baecchus Platinum | QC: CC 541 | r/WSB 11 Apr 01 '23

There is a LOT of market manipulation in this space, partly because of the complete opaqueness of it and the total lack of regulations surrounding reporting

Funny how people constantly complain about scams and manipulation while also complaining about incoming regulations. It's hilarious. Pick one folks.

1

u/Killertimme Apr 01 '23

Honestly, both suck.

Scams are annoying and strong regulations defeat the whole point of crypto. I think scams and such is the price we pay for decentralization and in the end thats ok

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u/DetailDevil666 Tin | 6 months old Apr 02 '23

Yes an organised team of humans vs a disorganised team of humans. The brilliance of the scheme is that the organised team pitch’s a narrative of “financial freedom”/ “fight the power” to the other team. So they feel like they’re winning while money is being systematically extracted from them. It’s impressive how well it works.

2

u/padizzledonk A Whales Vagina Apr 02 '23

The fucked up thing is that you don't even have to say much, you can just stay in the daily volume and slowly sell off your artificial pump, just stay silent

110

u/Bizziiik Redditor for 4 months. Apr 01 '23

Frankly i never trusted Binance and always tried to avoid of using it. Don't know why but i always felt that something Is off with them. Just my inner feel

43

u/SaneLad Platinum | QC: CC 226, BTC 213, ETH 16 | r/WSB 289 Apr 01 '23

What gave it away? Perhaps it's all the in-your-face blinking banners of shitcoin staking, giveaways, and highly leveraged trading that make it look like a cheap casino.

7

u/Aim_Sux Platinum | QC: ETH 135, CC 346 | TraderSubs 135 Apr 01 '23

As someone here said it

BSC - Binance Shitcoin Casino

3

u/Padankadank Platinum | QC: CC 40 | SysAdmin 29 Apr 01 '23

On LinkedIn they post pictures of tons of extravagant parties. Always seemed extremely wasteful

16

u/partymsl Platinum | QC: CC 702 | r/WSB 16 Apr 01 '23

Using Binance as on/off ramps is not bad but storing your Crypto on there is way too risky.

4

u/iExtrapolate217 Bronze | 4 months old | QC: ETH 16 Apr 01 '23

Binance has the lowest fees for buys and sells. That's why it has the highest volume. The high frequency traders all move to the platform with the lowest fees in lockstep.

3

u/Elie0_0 Apr 01 '23

It's as risky as any other CEX, which is very risky.

DEXs are the way to go if you can be your own bank

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u/Baecchus Platinum | QC: CC 541 | r/WSB 11 Apr 01 '23

Binance is the most convenient exchange I've used. At the end of the day it's an exchange. People should use it to exchange. It will only hurt you if you treat it like a bank.

2

u/S02303947 Monero fan Apr 01 '23

I always felt the same way!

3

u/Dense_Outcome_7684 Apr 01 '23

Because its Chinese...? XD

5

u/was437 Tin Apr 01 '23

I've got a lot of experience doing business with the Chinese, and they generally do business like a hustler.

2

u/Bizziiik Redditor for 4 months. Apr 01 '23

Its wierd that probably biggest company in crypto Is from country which Is banning crypto And regulating it even if the headquarters was moved away.

1

u/xsanchez21 Silver | QC: CC 122, XMR 53, BCH 46 | DCR 92 | Investing 10 Apr 01 '23

Exactly, there are better exchanges for buying Bitcoin.

7

u/No-Specialist6273 Tin | 4 months old Apr 01 '23

cough Kraken cough

4

u/ignore_my_typo Platinum | QC: BTC 40, CC 38 | Android 22 Apr 01 '23

I like Kraken but the user experience is one of the worst out there. Horrible UX.

3

u/xsanchez21 Silver | QC: CC 122, XMR 53, BCH 46 | DCR 92 | Investing 10 Apr 01 '23

Try Kraken Pro

3

u/londongastronaut Apr 01 '23

Use cryptowatch, it's a kraken product. Connect your other exchanges too and thank me later

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u/Mjrket Apr 01 '23

They were allegedly found trading against customers. That’s not the same as inside trading (buying or selling tokens before big news become public), or market manipulation

33

u/Baecchus Platinum | QC: CC 541 | r/WSB 11 Apr 01 '23

They were allegedly found trading against customers.

Everything does. Both in Crypto and the traditional markets. Why do people think longs and shorts take turns getting liquidated every 3 days?

15

u/GabeSter Platinum | QC: DOGE 2476, CC 909 | AvatarTrading 18 Apr 01 '23

More like every 30 minutes.

7

u/Baecchus Platinum | QC: CC 541 | r/WSB 11 Apr 01 '23

Rookie numbers. I can easily get liquidated within 5 minutes.

2

u/Movykappa Tin | BANANO 11 Apr 01 '23

Seconds?

2

u/Odysseus_Lannister Apr 01 '23

Because muh whales!

/S

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u/laulau9025 Apr 01 '23

trading against customers

Even scummier

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u/lukekibs Tin Apr 01 '23

It’s not inside trading if I’m screwing over my own customers! 🤡

2

u/Lillica_Golden_SHIB Bronze | BANANO 5 | TraderSubs 13 Apr 02 '23

Exchanges love this trick

1

u/Alanski22 Platinum | QC: CC 96 | AvatarTrading 27 Apr 01 '23

Extremely scummy. Reason enough for me to never use binance.

35

u/sextoymagic Tin | BTC critic | Politics 32 Apr 01 '23

It’s been clear as day for many years the crypto market is manipulated by a few people. It’s always been a scam. A huge scam that we can make money with. Just wait for the tether fall out.

4

u/deathbyfish13 Free Range Moon Farmer Apr 01 '23

It's just a big game of hot potato, except the potato is a big bag of coins that no one wants to be stuck holding

2

u/poojoop Platinum | QC: DOGE 68 | Superstonk 30 Apr 02 '23

just ten more years til the tether fallout!!

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u/Cactuszach Platinum | QC: CC 109 | r/WSB 47 Apr 01 '23

All markets are manipulated.

Welcome to finance.

4

u/sarfian Tin | ADA 8 Apr 01 '23

This is supposed to be common knowledge, or people just tend to ignore it?

2

u/gagiman Apr 01 '23

I can’t see it when I don’t look at it

2

u/BodomDeth Tin Apr 02 '23

People don’t like ‘conspiracy theories’

2

u/margin_hedged Apr 01 '23

People are well aware of it and ignore it until it absolves them of personal responsibility. Then all the sudden it’s a huge issue and the only reason it’s so hard for them to make money.

45

u/GridPunk Permabanned Apr 01 '23

Excellent question. Another way to put it - how manipulated is the Crypto space by Binance?

12

u/the_far_yard Stack a Sat, Stash a Gwei, Bull or Bear, D-C-A. Apr 01 '23

Considering that nearly 80% of BTC are traded on Binance, i would say it is significant.

8

u/partymsl Platinum | QC: CC 702 | r/WSB 16 Apr 01 '23

Still we should remember that nothing is “too big to fail“, if Binance has done shaddy stuff they will have to pay for it.

2

u/Lillica_Golden_SHIB Bronze | BANANO 5 | TraderSubs 13 Apr 02 '23

I dont want to see them going belly up, but the shaddier they are, the worse it is going to be for crypro as a whole

3

u/StoneWall_MWO Bronze Apr 01 '23

you mean 80% of the BTC that MOVES.

1

u/the_far_yard Stack a Sat, Stash a Gwei, Bull or Bear, D-C-A. Apr 01 '23

Yes. 80% of BTC that is being traded over the span of few months were on Binance.

2

u/Baecchus Platinum | QC: CC 541 | r/WSB 11 Apr 01 '23

Safe to assume nobody should be rooting Binance to fall regardless of their opinion. It might never recover again because it'd be the nail in the coffin for regulators.

3

u/the_far_yard Stack a Sat, Stash a Gwei, Bull or Bear, D-C-A. Apr 01 '23

Not rooting for Binance to fall, but if they have done such a thing, then they should go. Their practices would not have put the space in a better position.

2

u/Baecchus Platinum | QC: CC 541 | r/WSB 11 Apr 01 '23

They definitely should lose their monopoly, I agree. It should come naturally and slowly over time though. A sudden shift wouldn't be good for Crypto.

1

u/Electrical-Penalty44 Apr 01 '23

Crypto might be too compromised to recover its initial purpose (if you believe all of this isn't a scam anyway).

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u/Internet_Responsible Apr 01 '23

Binance is basically a money making machine for CZ and his affiliates. With that much power he almost can't lose..

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u/GridPunk Permabanned Apr 01 '23

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

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u/Baecchus Platinum | QC: CC 541 | r/WSB 11 Apr 01 '23

Monopoly and Crypto isn't a good mix. Wasn't decentralisation the whole point anyway?

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u/Savi321 Tin Apr 01 '23

Yes, it is. Wonder how bad he is compared to SBF.

That said, the last thing we want now is Binance failing.

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u/Baecchus Platinum | QC: CC 541 | r/WSB 11 Apr 01 '23

CZ is shady at best.

FTX was literal fraud.

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u/KBtrae Bronze Apr 01 '23

If Binance is doing extremely shady shit, we should all want it failing immediately.

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u/BraidRuner Tin Apr 01 '23

There is a Jail cell with his name on it right next to SBF

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u/dajohns1420 Platinum | QC: CC 74, Kucoin 45, BCH 24 | ExchSubs 45 Apr 01 '23

It's not just binance. Coinbase admitted that 90% of the LTC/BTC volume on their platform during the 2017 bull run was 1 of their employees. Analysis has shown up to 90% of off shore exchanges volume is likely wash trading. Then there is Tether which has been accessed many times of price manipulation, and have shown no reserves for the billions of tether they print and send to exchanges.

Wash trading is absolutely rampant in crypto, and many people have been saying it for years.

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u/Baecchus Platinum | QC: CC 541 | r/WSB 11 Apr 01 '23

Coinbase admitted that 90% of the LTC/BTC volume on their platform during the 2017 bull run was 1 of their employees.

And people are parroting "fuck the SEC" for going after Coinbase, lmao.

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u/Samuravi Tin Apr 01 '23

Heavily, I'd guess. They make up so much of the spot trading market share that they can basically wash trade as much as they like.

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u/milonuttigrain Platinum | QC: CC 1719 | Pers.Fin.NZ 17 Apr 01 '23

A huge portion of daily trading volumes that we see is just exchange wash trades. Many cases it’s artificially inflated the volumes to create the impression that the coin is in demand.

3

u/SeemoarAlpha Platinum | QC: BTC 50 Apr 01 '23

It goes deeper than that, along with artificially inflating volumes, many of the trades are multiway circle-jerks designed to inflate the value of proprietary tokens. This was the game being played at FTX. Larger trades were front-run, the arbitrage created and washed into newly minted FTT. When you own the casino, there's all kinds of opportunities to manipulate the games.

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u/Every_Hunt_160 Platinum | QC: CC 672 | r/SSB 10 Apr 01 '23

Nobody can really know for sure apart from CZ and whoever CZ decides to share the info with

2

u/VicBear93 Apr 01 '23

And I bet he keeps his cards very close to his chest.

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u/milonuttigrain Platinum | QC: CC 1719 | Pers.Fin.NZ 17 Apr 01 '23

CZ is like the kingpin of crypto world.

2

u/strongkhal Silver | QC: CC 84 | CRO 64 | ExchSubs 64 Apr 01 '23

If binance crashes, we'll see. A drop is certain

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u/Every_Hunt_160 Platinum | QC: CC 672 | r/SSB 10 Apr 01 '23

‘A drop’ , he said..

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u/PMme10dolarSteamCard Permabanned Apr 01 '23

Binance is the only way for many countries to access crypto. This would really be horrid.

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u/Calm-Cartographer677 Cryptonaut Apr 01 '23

Need to add Tether into the mix here too with their USDT printers going brrrrrr

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u/OneThatNoseOne Platinum | QC: CC 40 Apr 01 '23

I've been thinking hard about it and it's weird, because the house accounts were probably just used to trade for profits, probably with insider resources and/or knowledge, and not necessarily to manipulate markets necessarily.

But the point is that by them just trading, they are grossly distorting the natural market pricing mechanisms.

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u/jps_ Platinum | QC: ETH 96 | LegalAdvice 281 Apr 01 '23 edited Apr 01 '23

A better question is what is the price RISK.

When two parties agree to transfer crypto for fiat, they bear what is called pricing risk, which is the difference between what each of them end up with, and what they could have ended up with, if they hadn't done the trade.

Individually, people are notoriously bad at estimating price risk. However, collectively it turns out we are generally very good. We also inherited a herd instinct from our monkey ancestors, who inherited it from their shrew ancestors... and so on. So we listen well to each other and follow each other. In an open and transparent market, prices of highly liquid goods and in particular options on said goods usually triangulate into a long-term value quite reliably.

But that's in an open, transparent market where pricing risk is symmetric.

If we introduce asymmetric information AND asymmetric pricing risk, then the herd can be led around by its nose. And this is what most external observers are remarking about the crypto market. It has all the appearance of a highly manipulated market.

[edit: asymmetric pricing risk happens when some parties bear pricing risk, and others bear none. If I print a trade between two accounts that I own, my net pricing risk is zero, regardless of the price that is printed. With enough capital, such so-called wash-trading, done carefully can print prices that effectively lead the bid/ask spread by its nose in any direction].

There are a few clues. First, we know that crypto it the most immutable of assets: it is digitally pure, to enough decimal places that would make a laboratory chemist jealous. Second, we know the quantity - at least over the long-term, and at least for the major assets.

These characteristics should mean that it has extremely low volatility, because whatever value it has, it has that value permanently. Therefore, once the market decides on its value, it will hold that value without changing. But instead it has massive volatility. There are very few other assets that exhibit similar volatility. It's not just that we estimated low and are discovering how high its value really is, because it goes way up, and then crashes back. Over and over again. Over more than a decade.

So either crypto is in the "early stages" which defies the crowd's capacity to estimate value, or a large component of the value depends on which way the winds of pump and dump are blowing.

I've been around a long time and seen a lot of different technologies get invented, be misunderstood, languish in obscurity but nevertheless take off over time. And I've seen a lot of early-stage volatility. This is the longest run of "early stage" volatility I've ever seen. The longer it drags on, the more it is triggering my inner skeptic.

My experience is telling me that the game is still early, but it's important to protect against the risk of pump-and-dump. Meanwhile, since it is possible that the technology just has a longer maturation curve than any precedent invention, also important to watch for the real breakout, which is likely not happening where it started, but over where we aren't even thinking of looking.

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u/Double-LR Platinum | QC: BTC 17 Apr 01 '23

So this guy was basically pumping his own trading ecosystem with fake accounts funded with his own money, then frontruns his own users so that all his fake accounts gain better than the real customer base and the ecosystem he is performing this fraud in has its own trading token… so he pumps that too with excessive movements?

If true, turns out he’s every bit as bad as SBF. He just found a way to steal from every single customer he has without it causing collapse.

I wonder if his old friend who is in a shit ton of trouble right now provided some info on this stuff. Maybe I’m crazy but I don’t believe the CFTC is capable of actually tracking all that info from scratch on their own. I think they would need a significant amount of help.

9

u/UeckerisGod Apr 01 '23

The total crypto market cap went up approximately $250B between the Friday of the SVB failure announcement and the following Monday morning, with most of it taking place on the weekend when everyday people couldn’t withdraw all their savings. Crypto bros would have you believe the last run in price was a signal of the dawn of the foretold era where crypto supplants tradition finance, but the money behind the price movement wasn’t the everyday people speaking. It was rich whales seeing the SVB failure as an opportunity to increase their wealth by doing some man behind the curtain wizard of oz stuff.

The bottom line is cyrptos value doesn’t expand when prices go up. It’s value expands when it’s intended use expands. Prices going up is more indicative that big whales are just gaming the markets to increase their wealth. At least in this current economy.

14

u/EdgeLord19941 Apr 01 '23

Maybe Bitcoin was never real to begin with

9

u/Baecchus Platinum | QC: CC 541 | r/WSB 11 Apr 01 '23

Real Bitcoins were the friends we made along the way.

4

u/friendlyghost_casper Silver | QC: CC 74 | BANANO 98 Apr 01 '23

You’re still paying those taxes! Don’t even try it… :)

3

u/random1111990 Bronze Apr 01 '23

Without tethers pump and dump schemes of Bitcoin in the early days the scene wouldn’t be where it is.

In reality Binance is a small fish in comparison to the tether cartel.

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u/superduperdude92 Apr 01 '23

It was all about the friends we made along the way

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u/Savi321 Tin Apr 01 '23

Bitcoin is revolutionary.

Everything else is evolutionary.

Exchanges are convulotary. That's the problem.

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u/KingofTheTorrentine Platinum | QC: CC 42 Apr 01 '23

I'd wager most BTC and LTC are absolutely manipulated. BTC hitting 69k and LTC hitting 420 for their tops seems like something a childish sleazebag would do

2

u/poojoop Platinum | QC: DOGE 68 | Superstonk 30 Apr 02 '23

Btc hitting 69k was almost entirely due to 3ac and alameda tbh.

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u/Odysseus_Lannister Apr 01 '23 Gold

I’m just here for the “binance army” to realize that no CEX should be absolutely trusted.

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u/Nuewim Platinum | QC: CC 613, ETH 31 | TraderSubs 31 Apr 01 '23

It is not only Binance. Literally everyone is doing it.

8

u/Concept-Plastic Apr 01 '23

true, it's like a casino. The house always wins!

4

u/PMme10dolarSteamCard Permabanned Apr 01 '23

It feels obvious. And this is why you HODL instead of day trade or leverage gamble.

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u/Every_Hunt_160 Platinum | QC: CC 672 | r/SSB 10 Apr 01 '23

Even… Kraken ??!!

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u/Baecchus Platinum | QC: CC 541 | r/WSB 11 Apr 01 '23

I wouldn't be surprised. 90% of Kraken's shilling comes from this sub and we all know r/cc has a terrible track record, lol.

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u/baloneyum Platinum | QC: Kucoin 19 | ExchSubs 26 Apr 01 '23

On another note and in a bigger picture, CEX's likely work together to wreck the shorts, then wreck the longs all for their own gain. You can see their bots running in the oredr books. Anyways... you can still profit off them if you just set your oredrs in the distance and wait for the stars and hammers

8

u/[deleted] Apr 01 '23

There are several obvious shortcomings with the US government investigation of Binance.

  • The US government has no jurisdiction over Binance (except for its small Binance US division) so they cannot subpoena or see any of Binance's international documents. The US government can't and never will get access to international documents.
  • The US government investigators have historically been incompetent when it comes to crypto investigations. What they initially label as "suspicious" will probably turn out to be "perfectly legal". It is often the companies that the US government supports that are the actual problems. For example, the US Congress received $40 million in campaign donations from FTX was a big friend to their CEO Sam Bankman Fried (as evidenced by numerous smiling pictures of Fried with Congressional leaders)
  • Since most global crypto transactions flow through Binance, it is perfectly normal and expected for their client accounts doing business with each other. Binance is a market maker for crypto.

3

u/KilzzoneXD Free Crypto for Scammers Apr 01 '23

I'm not surprised by this at all tbh

2

u/sarfian Tin | ADA 8 Apr 01 '23

Same here

3

u/Ok-Grapefruit1284 Platinum | QC: CC 53, ETH 28, BTC 18 | ADA 8 | TraderSubs 24 Apr 01 '23

I’m glad you asked this in a clear manner. I’ve been feeling some FUD along these lines but had trouble articulating what I was thinking when I was trying to post something.

What determines a coin’s value? We can say that btc is worth what people are willing to pay for it, so buy and sell orders determine it’s worth. But depending on the market manipulation, it could be valued much much lower than we see by the charts? Does that mean that my btc is actually worth nothing? Does that mean all magic internet money rests solely on shady individuals who go out and pump the price up for us?

I don’t know. It’s been giving me spidey vibes lately. Interested to see what others are thinking.

2

u/Wendals87 Bronze | QC: CC 18 Apr 01 '23

I believe that the last bull run was heavily influenced by the likes of FTX and their fake BTC trading

I don't think BTC is organically going to be worth 70k anytime soon, let alone hundreds of thousands or millions people predict

3

u/Movykappa Tin | BANANO 11 Apr 01 '23

Well I guess my banano are safe then

2

u/Probably_notabot Tin | CC critic Apr 01 '23

Sleep peacefully with all that Potassium

3

u/luQuiRis Platinum | QC: CC 173 Apr 01 '23

I kinda like binance, and use BNB a lot

6

u/Darnegar Tin Apr 01 '23

If this is really the case, then the fall of Binance will be very painful, yet also just and necessary.

Unfortunately way too many scandals came out over the past year in the Crypto space.

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u/Gloomy_Tennis_5768 Tin | CC critic Apr 01 '23

Dude. Insider trading is rampant in stocks and crypto. It's how it is. If a person needs this to tell them it's going on then they are in the wrong game.

2

u/samdotla Platinum | QC: CC 64 Apr 02 '23

Insider trading is acting on information that is not available to the public. You’re describing price manipulation.

At this point we’re saying Binance shouldn’t be allowed to buy or sell crypto.

4

u/philosouf Apr 01 '23

Unfortunately the crypto market is very opaque

2

u/Darnegar Tin Apr 01 '23

The space needs to be cleaned from all the bad actors before we can advance to the next stages

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u/HokkaidoNights Alt Fanboi Apr 01 '23

We will never know the true proportion of the trading volume that's exchange manipulated. Hell even DEX price can be manipulated to a point.

You should be more worried about the big whales and their trading bots. High frequency trading is both fascinating and scary, and if you think those wall st guys haven't turned their tools to our markets, you're missing the bigger picture in actual trading volume. Volatility makes money.

Most of us market buying plankton are a tiny proportion of market volume, especially on margin/futures volume. It's fun playing though!

4

u/baloneyum Platinum | QC: Kucoin 19 | ExchSubs 26 Apr 01 '23

CZ stands for cock Zucker.

2

u/sarfian Tin | ADA 8 Apr 01 '23

“Zucker” hahaha

3

u/sarfian Tin | ADA 8 Apr 01 '23

It’s not like we all haven’t expected this. It has been a rumor since years but the truth has just been revealed now.

Maybe Kraken is the only good CEX we have out there

2

u/Wise-Grapefruit-1443 Apr 01 '23

Oh please, they’re doing the same thing as everyone else

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u/Chysce Permabanned Apr 01 '23

The game is rigged against traders.

The price is simply moving from liquidations to liquidations... with the only goal of causing maximum damage to participants.

5

u/Internet_Responsible Apr 01 '23

Agree.. it's so easy for them too. They know all the orders and basically are looking into everyone's cards!

6

u/Darnegar Tin Apr 01 '23

The trick I guess is to not fomo in or day trade to death. Buy, hold, and when it reaches your desired exit price, just sell and be done with it.

2

u/Every_Hunt_160 Platinum | QC: CC 672 | r/SSB 10 Apr 01 '23

If you play futures, you are playing against the house.

Never mind the ‘house’, the house which is Binance is actively rigged against you to take your profits.

They have all the order books so know which price will liquidate their customers. They can decide to pause trading at any time.

Binance is shady and opaque on the outside, but the irony is that all of their customers orders and holdings are fully transparent to them. This is why you should always stay away from Futures.

5

u/TheRicFlairDrip Tin Apr 01 '23

Basically this… stick to decentralized exchanges as much as possible and you wont get wreckt or manipulated ever.

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u/coinsRus-2021 Silver | QC: CC 52 | ADA 222 | TraderSubs 11 Apr 01 '23

This same stuff is all on the stock market let’s not feel so special. From skimming the top to wash trading.

But! They can’t touch our moons yet ;)

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u/n1ghsthade I suggest you do it now Apr 01 '23

Unfortunately, it shouldn't be a surprise that there was, and is, a large influence of insider trading and market makers surpressing or pumping prices. It's a highly volatile game played to make a lot of money of the retail market.

4

u/Cheesebaron Platinum | QC: XMR 76, BTC 46, CC 20 | r/AMD 126 Apr 01 '23

Somebody sent me a moon once - so there is at least one real transaction out there.

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u/vampir1389 Apr 01 '23

aren't all CEXes doing that? including traditional institutions.

wherever a man is involved, there will be greed

0

u/Darnegar Tin Apr 01 '23

Self custody is the way to go

2

u/BarryTheBaptistAU Apr 01 '23

Sure, you own the coins but if the exchange manipulates price down to $0, then your 1000 BTC is only worth $0 because almost all exchanges will swap them at $0.

Self custody is just a way to give you piece of mind that those 1000BTC can not be taken from you. Nothing more. They have no influence on price.

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u/Potential_Bid_9733 Permabanned Apr 01 '23

Manipulation at it's finest, today the shorts get rekt and tomorrow the longs.

2

u/saahilxo Apr 01 '23

This is just one giant board game. It’s been rigged against normal people since forever ago.

We are the fish in a ocean full of sharks

2

u/htd_23 Permabanned Apr 01 '23

CEXes are manipulating the market at its finest.

2

u/CreepToeCurrentSea Username says it all Apr 01 '23

I won’t be surprised if most or even all of exchanges have some degree of insider trading.

2

u/Rollthewindowzup Silver | QC: CC 301, BCH 16 | ADA 126 | TraderSubs 14 Apr 01 '23

I really think it's all flying over your head brother. They traded for profits. House accounts cant pump or dump the entire market mfer.

2

u/Coakis Bronze | QC: CC 19 | PCgaming 33 Apr 01 '23 edited Apr 01 '23

Mores the reason they need to be dismantled or the very reason people need to be dissuaded from keeping 'their' coins on the exchange, regardless if they are insider trading or trading against their users OR NOT.

Monopolies almost never help the consumer level on markets.

2

u/rqnyc Tin Apr 01 '23

This is why only buying BTC & ETH. Small market cap coins too easy to have inside trading or be manipulated

2

u/Elie0_0 Apr 01 '23

Exactly, can't risk the coins being manipulated by influencers or companies in such a way

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u/Ok-Barnacle-4602 Permabanned Apr 01 '23

Now ik why was i "buy High sell low club" member all the time.

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u/BlindestofMonks Apr 01 '23

Hard to say OP, imo it is in the "very very artificially inflated" area

2

u/ieatmoondust Pssssst... Hey! Got MOONS? Apr 01 '23

Ahhh...so THIS is why i haven't gotten filthy rich yet. I knew it wasn't my fault.

2

u/ChemicalGreek Apr 01 '23

I think the most manipulation happens with short term price actions were shorts and longs are liquidated in the same time. So a big pump followed by a big dump for example! A CEX makes a bank then.

1

u/Darnegar Tin Apr 01 '23

Yeah pretty much that. That's why the saying goes don't leverage in Crypto. Way too volatile.

3

u/zoomercoomer9000 Apr 01 '23 edited Apr 01 '23

Here is the relevant complaint in full:

https://i.imgur.com/nYQLTf2.jpg

Insider trading is legally defined as:

Buying or selling a security, in breach of a fiduciary duty or other relationship of trust and confidence, on the basis of material, nonpublic information about the security.

While there have been documented cases of insider trading at Binance, I'm not sure if this would fall under insider trading in the legal sense.

A common example of insider trading is when someone with inside knowledge purchases a large amount of a particular token just before it is listed on the exchange, and subsequently sells it for a profit.

2

u/[deleted] Apr 01 '23 edited Apr 01 '23

[deleted]

1

u/Wendals87 Bronze | QC: CC 18 Apr 01 '23

what's wrong with having a Chinese name and being a Canadian citizen? or any other countries citizen?

2

u/Mareon Apr 01 '23

I think loss of trust in them will have higher impact on the market than the insider trading that was happening has.

0

u/diamondbored Silver | QC: CC 124, ETH 41 | BANANO 26 | TraderSubs 43 Apr 01 '23

Unfortunately crypto markets are heavily manipulated because of lack of regulations. However, for the same reason makes crypto space the wild frontier, with opportunities to make it rich (and also lots of possible scams)!

1

u/Due-World2907 Tin Apr 01 '23

Is anything on this earth real?

1

u/Hope8888 Tin Apr 01 '23

I think the biggest thing is that they were targeting peoples stop losses and causing liquidations for profit… just shady

2

u/bangand0 Apr 01 '23

Yeah they also weren’t using all of their 70% market share to manipulate prices. Just enough for some targeted liquidations

1

u/BlindestofMonks Apr 01 '23

Nothing wrong with having a CEX if they keep it simple

"Hey guys, we won many coins and you can swap your coins for other coins we own for a fee"

This is normal and expected, but when a CEX starts building its own chain and offering derivatives, futures, etc, that's the recipe for disaster

1

u/[deleted] Apr 01 '23

Is it actually insider trading if you trade on your platform? Not saying CZ ain't shady, but is it actually illegal to use your own platform?

1

u/MaeronTargaryen Your friendly neighborhood dragonlord Apr 01 '23

I mean, Binance is massive for their volume, which is a lot of wash trading but also a lot of actually people filling the order book

I don’t think that the prices are manipulated as much as the volume

1

u/OutTop Tin | 3 months old Apr 01 '23

Every market gets manipulated. Binance insider trading its customers won't affect the market tho. Only affects Binance future traders. If Binance were to go down and sell all their crypto we would crash

1

u/KlemenKisi Apr 01 '23

Just last month I was commenting on some posts how Binance is too big to crash. I am not so sure anymore.

2

u/superduperdude92 Apr 01 '23

And if they do fall they'll bring a lot down with it.

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u/SenseiRaheem Armchair Astronaut Apr 01 '23

Get your shit on a Ledger or a Trezor ASAP. These Fuckers, it turns out, are just as corrupt as Wall Street

Buy on an exchange and then move your shit so that it’s actually yours. While you are waiting for your wallet to ship, move your coins into MetaMask.

I lost SO MUCH when the corrupt fuckers at Celsius ran out of steam and got caught. Don’t be like past me. Be like present me: get a fucking cold wallet.

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u/djmoblei Tin Apr 01 '23

False.

There’s no mention about insider trading in the CFTC case. On chain analysis, according to a tweet by this guy “FatMan” on Twitter, suggests that a single insider from Binance profited ~$10M by front running coin listings on the exchange. The CFTC deals with commodities, which have been identified in ETH, BTC and USDT.

On top of that, the float and liquidity is simply not there to make significant money by front running your favorite BabyDoge coin. I believe Binance has very little to do with your stop losses getting triggered and you alts going to 0. Just get over it.

1

u/unitys2011 Platinum | QC: CC 35 Apr 01 '23

I knew I wasn’t a bad trader! /s

1

u/JudithMoores Apr 01 '23

Well, if Binance was really found to be heavily involved in insider trading, then I guess we can all say that the crypto market is more rigged than a carnival game! It's like trying to play a game of darts blindfolded, with someone else holding the dartboard and constantly moving it around.

1

u/PMme10dolarSteamCard Permabanned Apr 01 '23

Isn't this also happening in traditional financial institutions as well? They make like a billion and are fined a million.

1

u/Elie0_0 Apr 01 '23

Now that there have been a few rumors about Binance, everyone's ready to accuse everything they've ever done of being fake too...

Too ready to jump to conclusions based on rumors

1

u/TroubleInMyMind Bronze | r/WSB 18 Apr 01 '23

Binance has the most volume and the most volume is in Tether pairs and that should tell you everything you need to know about price action.

But I'll spell it out: it's all manipulative.

1

u/igadjeed Platinum | QC: BTC 480, LTC 49, CC 36 Apr 01 '23

That's not insider trading. It's wash trading to manipulate prices

Insider trading is buying or selling with advance knowledge of information which will cause the price to move

1

u/DizGod Apr 01 '23

Zerooooo haha I remember seeing a tweet that we will see eth hit XX prices, before it’s down to X prices.

2

u/Probably_notabot Tin | CC critic Apr 01 '23

Happy cake day Diz!

-2

u/jasomniax Apr 01 '23

The only reality that I care about is that the real world use cases are increasing for crypto

0

u/jibbond 7 - 8 years account age. 200 - 400 comment karma. Apr 01 '23

Everything is manipulated to some degree.

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